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UFOs and=20 The New Physics

The=20 Starship Builders

The=20 Sarfatti Letters

StarDrive=20 Discussion Group
International Space
Sciences = Organization=20

International Fighter
Pilots = Association=20

Email Dr.=20 Jack Sarfatti

The Many=20 Universes of
Dr. Fred Alan Wolf

The=20 StarDrive Library

The Physics=20 = Chanteuse=

Recent Sarfatti Email Exchanges



Subject: Re: Mavramatos paper on microtubules

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 23:14:33 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: Tony Smith <tsmith@innerx.net>

Thanks :-)

Tony Smith wrote:

> There is a paper by Mavramatos at

>

> http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/0009089

>

> with the title

>

> Cell Microtubules as Cavities:Quantum Coherence and = Energy=20 Transfer?

>

> Its abstract says:

>

> "A model is presented for

> dissipationless energy transfer in cell = microtubules

> due to quantum coherent states.

> The model is based on

> conjectured (hydrated) ferroelectric properties of=20 microtubular arrangements.

> Ferroelectricity is essential in providing the = necessary=20 isolation

> against thermal losses in thin interior regions,

> full of ordered water,

> near the tubulin dimer walls of the microtubule.

> These play the role of cavity regions,

> which are similar to electromagnetic cavities of = quantum=20 optics.

> As a result,

> the formation of (macroscopic) quantum coherent states = of=20 electric dipoles

> on the tubulin dimers may occur.

> Some experiments,

> inspired by quantum optics,

> are suggested for the falsification of this = scenario."

>

> Tony 22 Sep 2000

--

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Subject: [Fwd: Re: the conference]

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 23:22:42 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: lensman@stardrive.org

:-)

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: Re: the conference

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 23:21:36 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: Bill Page <bill.page1@sympatico.ca>

CC: =D0=D2=CF=C6=C5=D3=D3=CF=D2 =EB=CF=CE=CB=D2=C5=D4=CE = =D9=CA=20 <professor@narod.ru>,RKiehn2352@aol.com, David

Cyganski <cyganski@ece.WPI.EDU>

References: = <006f01c02434$1b178740$7db8fea9@billpage>

Bill Page wrote:

> Prof. Alexander Konkretny,

>

> On Thursday, September 21, 2000 2:42 PM you wrote:

>

> >

> >No reply from Carmeli? Strange, I was sure the = email=20 was

> >correct.

>

> Yes, it is a pity, however since I have never = corresponded=20 with

> Dr. Carmeli before, perhaps he simply ignored my = message.

> Would you be able to encourage him to reply?

>

> >

> >Could you tell me the details of that ISSO Torsion = Conference

> >where "everyone was snoring at your talk on the = Maple=20 Engine"

> >as Jack Sarfatti says?

>

> Don't believe everything that Jack says. The ISSO = Torsion

> Workshop was intensive and rather exhausting. Perhaps = that

> is why Jack was sleeping during my presentation.

I wasn't sleeping at all. I was busy working on my Power = Point

Presentation

on my laptop. However, the din of the snoring from almost = everyone=20 else

in

the room was annoying at times and made it hard to = concentrate!=20 Some of

the

ones not snoring were shnorring coffee and pastries in the=20 back.

> But Shipov,

> for one, was not sleeping.

Shipov is like Super Man. He was one of the few not = snoring. I=20 will

vouch

for that.

> He seemed genuinely interested in

> the details of the computer algebra including a result = that=20 showed

> some of the (non-critical) equations in the English = edition=20 of

> his book were incorrect. Vadimir Poponin later asked = me for=20 a

> copy of the Maple worksheet. You can download a copy = of=20 this

> worksheet at:

>

> = http://www3.sympatico.ca/bill.page1/maple/bergmann4d7.mws

>

> If you do not have Maple release 5 or 6, then I could=20 prepare

> a PDF version of the worksheet that you would be able = to

> read. Let me know if you would prefer it in PDF form.=20 Please

> note also that this is not a "final" document and is = subject=20 to

> further revision as and when time permits.

>

> To tell you the details of the workshop would take a = lot of=20 time.

> The entire workshop was video taped by an ISSO = associated

> company called Sound Photosynthesis. Tapes of = individual

> presentations are available from them for about $35 = each.=20 The

> whole set would consist of about 10 tapes of about 3 = hours

> each. You can contact that company by their web site = at:

>

> http://sound.photosynthesis.com/

>

> > Who participated in it?

>

> Shipov gave two presentations - one theoretical and = the=20 other

> concerning recent experimental results with his = "inertiod"=20 device.

> There were presentations by Robert Kiehn and others. = See=20 the

> attached email containing the workshop schedule that = was=20 sent

> to me just before I left for the meeting.

>

> The title for my presentation was given incorrectly. = That is=20 actually

> the presentation that I gave at the Vigier 2000 = conference=20 that took

> place the week after the workshop. The slides for my = Vigier=20 2000

> presentation are available at:

>

> = http://www3.sympatico.ca/bill.page1/docs/v2kslides6.pdf

>

> The presentations at the Vigier 2000 conference = (including=20 mine)

> will eventually be published as were the previous two=20 conferences

> in this series. But again, please do not consider the = above=20 slides

> as "final". They are also subject to revision. I can = send you=20 a copy

> of the preprint of the paper after it is accepted for=20 publication some

> time in the next few months. If you are interested, = please=20 remind me

> again.

>

> >And could you tell me more about the report you = made?

>

> At the workshop my emphasis was on the use of computer = algebra

> techniques for verification of the differential = geometry used=20 by

> Shipov and Mendel Sachs in their unified field = theories. I=20 would

> be glad to discuss this in more detail with you if you = are=20 interested.

>

> Regards,

> Bill Page.

Mendel Sachs was not there. He must have been shnorring = somewhere=20 else.

>

>

> ----------------

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Dr. Jack Sarfatti <sarfatti@well.com>

> To: Vladimir Poponin <vladimir@isso.org>

> Cc: Creon Levit <creon@isso.org>;=20 <faustin@sound.photosynthesis.com>

> Date: Sunday, August 13, 2000 10:08 PM

> Subject: ISSO Torsion Workshop Schedule Changes

>

> >Vlad - note I will present Jim Corum's paper "A = Note on=20 the Historical

> >Origin of Anholonomity" as a preface to my Thurs = talk.=20 Note some typo

> >corrections.

> >

> >Program of The First ISSO Workshop on Torsion in = General=20 Relativity and

> >Unified Field Theories

> >

> >August 15 -18, 2000, San Francisco

> >

> >

> >August 15, Tuesday, First Day

> >

> >10-00 - 10-10 AM

> >

> >Creon Levit

> >Welcome Address

> >

> >10-10- 10-30 AM

> >

> >Vladimir Poponin

> >Introductory Remarks

> >

> >10-30 -11-30

> >

> >

> >Creon Levit

> >"How we got here: The emergence and reemergence of = torsion=20 in unified

> >field theories."

> >

> >11-30 - 12-30

> >

> >Richard Hammond

> >

> >North Dakota State University

> >

> >1. Gravitation with torsion from a potential, = forces and=20 interactions.

> >

> >12-30 - 1-30

> >

> >Richard Hammond

> >

> >North Dakota State University

> >

> >Non-holonomic basis for torsion with a potential, = Dirac=20 coupling, and

> >physical interactions.

> >

> >1-30 - 2-30 - Lunch Break

> >

> >2-30 - 4-00

> >

> >Axel Pelster

> >

> >The Nonholonomic Mapping Principle

> >Hagen Kleinert, Axel Pelster

> >Institut fur Theoretische Physik, Freie = Universitat=20 Berlin,

> >

> >

> >4-00 - 5-00 PM

> >

> >Axel Pelster

> >The Classical Laws of Motion

> >Hagen Kleinert, Axel Pelster

> >Institut fur Theoretische Physik, Freie = Universitat=20 Berlin,

> >

> >5-00 - 6-00

> >Roh S. Tung

> >California Institute for Physics and = Astrophysics

> >

> >Energy-Momentum in Teleparallel and Quadratic = Spinor=20 Representation of

> >General Relativity

> >

> >

> >August 16, Wednesday. Second Day

> >

> >10-00 - 11-30

> >Gennady Shipov, Moscow, Thailand

> >

> >1. Geometrisation of Energy-Momentum Tensor of = Matter in=20 Theory of

> >Physical Vacuum

> >

> >11-30 - 13-00

> >Gennady Shipov, Moscow, Thailand

> >

> >2. Four-Dimensional Gyroscope: Theory and = Experiments

> >

> >13-00 -13-30

> >

> >Discussion

> >

> >

> >1-30 -2-30 Lunch Break

> >

> >2-30 - 4-00

> >Saul- Paul Sirag

> >ISSO

> >

> >Torsion in Superstring Theory

> >

> >4-00 - 5-00

> >

> >William S. Page

> >Quaternions, Torsion and the Physical Vacuum; The = views of=20 M. Sachs and

> >G. Shipov Compared

> >5-00 - 6-00

> >

> >Robert Kiehn

> >University of Houston

> >

> >Notes on Holonomic and Anholonomic Constraints,=20 Frobenius

> >Integrability, and Torsion of various types

> >

> >August 17, Thursday , Third Day

> >

> >10-00 - 11-30 PM

> >

> >Vladimir Poponin

> >ISSO

> >Geometry of Nonholonomic Spaces: Ricci Calculus = versus=20 Cartan Calculus

> >V. Poponin, G. Shipov

> >

> >11-30 - 1-00

> >

> >Jack Sarfatti

> >ISSO & Internet Science Education Project, San = Francisco

> >

> >Anholonomic Geometrodynamics

> >including at the beginning a summary of James = Corum's=20 paper in absentia

> >"A Note on the Historical Origin of = Anholonomity"

> >

> > Jack Sarfatti

> >

> >1-30- 2-30 Lunch Break

> >

> >2-30 - 3-30

> >Robert Kiehn

> >University of Houston

> >

> >The Many Faces of Torsion

> >

> >3-30 - 6-00

> >General Discussion on Anholonomity, Torsion and=20 Teleparallelism in

> >GR/UFT

> >

> >

> >August 18. Friday, Fourth Day.

> >

> >

> >10-00 - 11-30

> >

> >Alexander Ignatov,

> >General Physics Institute, Moscow

> >

> >Gravity from Nonlinear Electrodynamics

> >

> >A.M. Ignatov, V.P. Poponin

> >

> >11-30 - 1-00 PM

> >

> >Bernard Haisch

> >California Institute for Physics and Astrophysics, = Palo=20 Alto

> >

> >Inertia, the de Broglie Wavelength, and the=20 Electromagnetic Zero-Point

> >Field

> >

> >1-0 - 2-00 Lunch Break

> >

> >2-00 - 3-00

> >

> >Giovanni Modanese

> >California Institute for Physics and Astrophysics, = Palo=20 Alto

> >

> >Large "dipolar" fluctuations in quantum gravity as = a=20 possible mechanism

> >for anomalous coupling to electromagnetism.

> >

> >3-00 - 4-00

> >

> >Jack Sarfatti

> >Summary of Workshop

> >

> >4-00 - 6-00

> >

> >Final Discussion. Closing

> >

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Subject: Re: Bohm, Goldstein, etc.

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 23:26:59 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: Shelly Goldstein <oldstein@math.rutgers.edu>

Thanks! :-) I will order the book.

Shelly Goldstein wrote:

> Dear Jack,

>

> Mara Beller's book is excellent. It was chosen as best = book of=20 the year in

> its category by the Journal of Intellectual History. I = strongly recommend it.

>

> Beller has no illusions whatsoever about the = pretensions of=20 the physics

> establishment. She knows the score and well = understands the=20 physics, the

> philosophy, and the history.

>

> Best, Shelly

--

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Subject: Re: QUANTUM-MIND Digest - 18 Sep 2000 to 21 Sep = 2000=20 (#2000-34)

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 08:26:46 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: Quantum Approaches to Consciousness=20 <QUANTUM-MIND@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>

CC: Uzi Awret <awret@erols.com>

Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.skeptic

Automatic digest processor wrote:

> Subject: QUANTUM-MIND Digest - 18 Sep 2000 to 21 Sep = 2000=20 (#2000-34)

> Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 00:07:42 -0700

> From: Automatic digest processor=20 <LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU>

> Topics of the day:

>

> 1. [Q-Mind] Quantum entanglement and the Neural = Correlates of=20 Consciousness.

> - Uzi Awret.

> 2. [Q-Mind] A definition of consciousness - Alex = Green

> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> Contributions distributed to this list are = automatically=20 archived at

> = http://listserv.arizona.edu/lsv/www/quantum-mind.html

> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>

>

>=20 = ------------------------------------------------------------------------<= /P>

>

> Subject: [Q-Mind] Quantum entanglement and the Neural=20 Correlates of

> Consciousness. - Uzi Awret.

> Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 01:03:47 -0400

> From: uzi awret <awret@EROLS.COM>

>

> From: Uzi Awret, <awret@erols.com>

> Subject: Quantum entanglement and the Neural = Correlates of

> Consciousness.

>

> Stuart raises an important issue,

>

> [Stuart]

> How can we have different areas (microtubules) of the = brain=20 entangled?

[Jack Sarfatti]

Phase-locking of the 10^18 caged electron dipole qubits by = coherent=20 electric near

fields - possibly the Crick 40 Hz field. Haken calls this=20 "enslavement" in

"Synergetics".

> [Stuart]

> I've been assuming that to do so requires that the = different=20 regions were

> at an earlier time in a common quantum state.

[Jack]

Not sufficient, e.g. "presponse" in Radin-Bierman type = data.

[Stuart]

> Can that happen if the

> different regions haven't been "joined" somehow at an = earlier=20 time (for

> example via gap junctions). Could it go back to = embryology?=20 Can there be

> entanglement established when the regions are already=20 separated?

[Jack]

Yes through a spatially spread out coherent electric near = field=20 coupling to the

electrons. They key is the caged electrons which are still = truly=20 quantum objects and

they form qubits in their cages in the double well = potentials.

>

> It would require some kind of commonality in the = quantum=20 information. What

> do you think?This may be an important point.

>

> [Uzi]

> Hello Stuart, I often think about these questions, = they are=20 very

> difficult. I think that we need more experimental = results.

> Most and perhaps all of the information processing = which=20 occurs in the

> brain can be explained classically and is supported by = some=20 good

> experimental data, however the NCC can be identified = with=20 processes in the

> molecular or submolecular domain.

> Where, when, how and even if, the classical level = interacts=20 with the

> quantum level is still an open question. However its = more=20 manageable than

> questions about the nature of the interaction of = consciousness=20 with the

> brain or mind with matter.

[Jack]

The Bohm ontology is far superior to vague Copenhagen = notions of=20 "classical level"

compared to "quantum level". The pilot wave is a mental = information=20 field

"mindscape" that moves the matter configuration it is = literally=20 attached to, in

return, the matter configuration (positions of caged = electrons in=20 the dimers of the

MTs) collectively reshapes the mindscape. It is this = reshaping of=20 the mindscape that

we experience as inner consciousness. We have here a = post-quantum=20 self-organizing

feedback control loop between mind and brain tweaked by=20 environmental classical

signals to the material electron positions inside their = cages=20 protecting them from

thermal noise as Stuart has suggested. There is no = "collapse"=20 needed as Basil Hiley

has shown. What you have is a continual reshaping of the = mindscape=20 forming the stream

of conscious moments and also the active role of mind = moving matter=20 via

thedeBroglie-Bohm guidance constraint.

> [Uzi]

> The question of falsifiability here is more = complicated but=20 also makes

> it harder to rule QM out. Its hard and perhaps = impossible to=20 come up with

> an experiment that would rule QM out. This line of = thinking=20 can be taken all

> the way to the Planc scale. Thats the nature of the = NCC, there=20 is never a

> final correlate.

>

> Lets for a moment accept something like Tononi and = Edelmans=20 dynamic core

> hypothesis as valid and that while experiencing a = conscious=20 mental state

> some sub group of neurons which are distributed over=20 completely different

> regions of the cortex, and which are modulated by = strongly=20 interacting

> neurons with long connections in the thalamic nuclei, = somehow=20 enter into a

> synchronous firing pattern.

> That explains binding and is correlated with = consciousness, It=20 does not

> explain consciousness in any way, and if anything, = makes=20 consciousness

> itself epiphenomenal. Thats why a deeper understanding = of=20 matter( and of

> course spacetime) is needed here.

>

> The question than is how do distant neurons enter into = a=20 quantum

> coherent state or even how do two modules of 50 000 = neurons in=20 different

> areas of the cortex have some kind of quantum=20 entanglement.

>

> Lets distinguish between two kinds of = entanglement.

> 1) Strong entanglement - one in which all the neuronal = or=20 physical

> substrate which participates in the dynamic core is = also=20 entangled quantum

> mechanically.

> 2) Weak entanglement- One in which only a small part = of the=20 core

> (although distributed over the whole core) is = entangled and=20 perhaps for

> short times only or in a stochastic sense.

>

> At this point it would be useful to distill a = criterion that=20 quantum

> mechanical theories of the brain would need to satisfy = in=20 order to be

> compatible with the dynamic core hypothesis. I think = that this=20 in itself is

> not an easy question.

> For example- individual modules could be coherent but=20 correlated with

> other distant modules classically. you could still = have=20 binding but a

> quantum NCC.

>

> Standard QM views any interaction between simpler = systems as=20 entangled

> or as a superposition of possibilities prior to a = measurement=20 ( or

> interaction with the environment). One of the problems = that we=20 have is

> deciding which parts of the brain can be considered as = system=20 and which

> parts as environment.

[Jack]

Simple, the electrons in their cages is the only relevant = material=20 subsystem of the

brain that generates consciousness. Consciousness is a = collective=20 electron effect

just like chemical bonding, solid state properties etc.

> [Uzi]

>

> Then there is the question of quantum coherence Vs.=20 classical

> synchronicity. Is there some correspondence principle = ( ALA=20 Bohr) which

> connects the classical and quantum domains? Let me = give an=20 example:

> Christian Huygens was the first to realize something = strange.=20 All the

> pendulum clocks in his shop which were connected to = the same=20 wall and in

> which initially the pendulums oscillated with = different phases=20 would start

> oscillating in phase after a while. So classically = there is a=20 mechanism like

> the non linear coupling supplied by the wall which can = cause a=20 system of

> harmonic oscillators to oscillate in phase.

[Jack]

Crick near electric field 40 Hz (and harmonics) coupled to = the=20 caged electrons?

Problem of resonance of course, 40 Hz seems low, but we = must=20 remember that the

virtual photons forming the near-field are off "mass shell" = so you=20 cannot assume f =3D

kc for them as you do for far field radiation. So you can = have a=20 small f =3D 40 Hz and

a large k =3D 1/(nanometer).

The small f =3D 40 Hz would then be a PHASE COHERENT = low-lying=20 collective resonance of

the 10^18 electron qubits which is exactly what you want. = The=20 electrons are then a

phased array synchronized over the entire brain with a = "common pool=20 of active" mental

information.

> [Uzi]

> So now we want to know what the QM analog of this = behavior is.=20 In both

> the Frohlich mechanism and in lasers we do something = similar=20 where we can

> be said to induce quantum coherence in a group of = coupled=20 oscillators.

> Mathematically there is a gap here between a complex = non=20 linear model and QM

> which is linear. The whole connection between non = linear=20 systems or dynamics

> and localization is not well understood. Other = examples are=20 the Benzene

> molecules and the Rydberg atom which seem to suggest a = deeper=20 connection

> between QM and non linear dynamics. Scott can tell us=20 something about that.

> Of course the issue of thermal noise here needs to be=20 considered

> separately. If one can isolate a system from its = environment=20 than one need

> not induce coherence. Things will be coherent by=20 themselves.

>

> One of the problems that I have here is the way in = which we=20 embrace

> environmental decoherence models. Im not sure what = counts as a=20 measurement

> inside the brain. Does a measurement imply the = creation of a=20 record or a

> gain in information? Now we run into the relationship = between=20 entropy,

> information and the measurement problem which is not = well=20 understood.

>

> We need to understand the collective properties of = water=20 better and

> start with smaller molecular structures like proteins. = If one=20 can establish

> coherence and protection from thermal noise in such a = smaller=20 system which

> feeds on ATP hydrolysis then you can have all kinds of = things=20 happen. If

> connected to a microtubule like a MAP protein it could = perhaps=20 induce

> coherence in the water inside the tube. This in my = opinion is=20 also one of

> Tegmark's mistakes. For his decoherence times he took = the mass=20 of a whole MT

> as a minimum. However if coherence can be maintained = in much=20 smaller systems

> in contact with the MT the situation demands a = different kind=20 of analysis.

[Jack]

Electrons, electrons. It is the electrons! The proper scale = is the=20 mass of a single

electron not a single MT.

> [Uzi]

> Its like using the Boeing argument against Darwinian=20 evolution. If you shake

> a collection of nuts and bolts will you create a = plane? Of=20 course, evolution

> had a history of intermediate interacting systems = which are=20 crucial to this

> kind of analysis but overlooked by creationists.

>

> Now we can finally think about your original question. = How can=20 distant

> cortical regions be entangled if they were not in = contact=20 originally?

> If one approximates the time it takes a photon to = cross the=20 brain we get

> 10cm/10exp(10) cm/sec or a bilionth of a second so the = time it=20 would take

> for two cortical regions separated by 10 cm to = interact has to=20 be bigger

> than that. if the whole mass becomes correlated than = the=20 decoherence times

> seem too small to allow that possibility. The photon = would=20 travel a much

> shorter distance.

[Jack]

This is an erroneous way to think. Note that the speed of = light in=20 an atomic

Bose-Einstein condensate is low - of course it is not clear = if the=20 brain has a high

temperature off-equilibrium analog to that.

But apart from that, the virtual photons forming the = coherent near=20 electric brain

fields Crick talks about do not have a large speed like a = real=20 photon. Indeed, the

effective phase speed f/k << c also - off the mass = shell!

> [Uzi]

> So we have to think about this embryological business. = If=20 two

> biomolecules originally in contact and in a coherent = state,=20 together with

> its bound water, separates and the biomolecules could = migrate=20 to different

> parts and still maintain some aspect of their = entanglement you=20 could perhaps

> have long range coherence. If they end at different = sites they=20 could

> actually coordinate or facilitate synchronization in = the=20 dynamic core. In

> the same way that computers need to be synchronized by = local=20 clocks. Of

> course the trick is to come up with a thermal shield = that=20 would last a long

> time. Perhaps if you have two distant computational = modules in=20 the cortex of

> something like 10 000 neurons its enough to have only = a=20 relatively small

> number of molecules which maintain their intermodular=20 entangelment. If

> enough energy is supplied localy in the right way = these=20 molecules could

> become entangeled with intramodular elements which = could=20 create a

> collective coherent state which involves both modules. = Its=20 like those

> caveman which had to always have some fire burning=20 continuosly.

> Embryology offers some fascinating possibilities. = Replication=20 which is

> crucial to biology gives a lot of opportunity for = initial=20 contact.

>

> Another possibility which could be interesting is one = in which=20 the

> accuracy of local oscillations grows with the number = of=20 neurons which

> oscillate synchronously. If this accuracy surpasses a = certain=20 threshold

> value then perhaps these local oscillations can couple = with=20 local modes.

> There

> are other possibilities to be considered but this is = getting=20 too long.

> Best, Uzi.

>

> --

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Subject: Re: Relativistic EPR-Bell Experiments

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:37:50 -0700 (PDT)

From: <stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov>

Reply-To: hpstapp@lbl.gov

To: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

CC: hpstapp@lbl.gov, Barry Carter = <bcarter@igc.org>,

Robert Neil Boyd <rnboyd@mip.net>, Evan Harris Walker = <wcri@erols.com>,

"Puthoff@aol.com" <Puthoff@aol.com>, Saul-Paul Sirag=20 <sirag@pond.net>,

"tsmith@innerx.net" <tsmith@innerx.net>,

Vladimir Poponin <vladimir@isso.org>,

"Dr. Eric W. Davis" <ericdavis@nidsci.org>,

"Gary G. Ford" <Swimp@home.com>, Creon Levit=20 <creon@isso.org>,

"dewatson@sunflower.com" = <dewatson@sunflower.com>,

Gary E Schwartz <gschwart@U.Arizona.EDU>,

Gary Osborn <Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk>,

"JagdishM@aol.com" <JagdishM@aol.com>,

Joe Firmage <jfirmage@intendchange.com>,

L Dunning = <transparent_metals_manufacturing@hotmail.com>,

"lensman@stardrive.org" <lensman@stardrive.org>,

"pandolfi@zzapp.org" <pandolfi@zzapp.org>,

"urigeller@compuserve.com" = <urigeller@compuserve.com>,

Stan Klein <klein@spectacle.berkeley.edu>

Dear Jack,

You are not reading what I said, and are not

understanding what Gisin said. Let me spell

things out in more detail.

What I said is that according to the equations of = relativistic=20 quantum

field theory the predictions about observations do not = depend=20 on

the way one chooses the frame in which the collapse occur=20 "now",

i.e., occur along the constant-time surfaces. This is not=20 debatable:

you can check it for yourself in the simple EPR-type = experiments=20 that we

are talking about. That is, one can choose the surfaces of=20 instantaneous

collapse so that the experiment on the right occur first, = or that=20 the

experiment on the left occurs first, or that both = experiments occur=20 at

the same time. All three choices give the same predictions. = In the=20 first

case, the two possible outcomes on the right, up and down, = each=20 occur with

probability 1/2. Then one can easily compute for each case, = U or D,=20 the

probabilities for the two possible outcomes on the left, U' = and=20 D',

and then compute the observable correlation = UU'-UD'-DU'+DD'.

In the second case the order of doing the computation is=20 reversed,

but you will easily confirm that the predictions about=20 observations

are identical. The third case gives the same predictions. = This is=20 just a

special case of the general result in relativistic quantum = field=20 theory

that the predictions about observations do not depend on = the frame=20 in

which the instantaneous collapses occur. This is a key = element of=20 the

claim that relativistic quantum field theory is = "relativistic".

It is essential for this `relativistic character' of=20 relativistic

quantum field theory that the collapses be = instantaneous.

Given this result that the predictions about observations = do=20 not

depend on the choices of the surfaces along which the=20 instantaneous

collapses occur, it follows that one cannot deduce = anything

about the choices of these surfaces from experiments in = which

the predictions are satified.

So what were Gisin et. al. doing?

They noted that some physicists were boggled by the idea of = instantaneous

effects in faraway places,and were proposing that the = collapses

propagate at some high but finite velocity, in some = frame.

The most natural guess for this frame is the rest frame of = the=20 cosmic

background radiation. If the collapse were to propagate at = finite=20 velocity

in this way the prediction of quantum theory would be = violated for=20 certain

placements of the experiments: if the two experiments are=20 sufficiently

close to instantaneous in this special frame then the = effect of=20 the

faraway experiments would not arrive in time to affect the=20 nearby

outcomes, and the correlations in the EPR experiments would = disappear.

This would of course disrupt the relativistic properties = that

are so nicely preserved if the transfers are = instantaneous.

Still, science rests on the experimenal testing

of even the most secure ideas, so Gisin et. al. noted = that

the conformity of their experimental results to the = orthodox

predictions did rule out the idea of finite velocity = transfer

in this particulr frame unless that velocity was

greater than 1.5x10^4 c.

But that result in no way alters the fact that = experimental

results that *conform* to the orthodox predictions = provide

no information about the surfaces along with the = collapses

occur if these collapses are instantanteous, as they = are

in the vN (and Tomonaga-Schwinger) theory.

I hope this more detailed discussion of the situation

resolves our differences on this matter.

Best regards,

Henry

Subject: Re: Relativistic EPR-Bell Experiments

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 12:16:46 -0700

From: Jack Sarfatti <sarfatti@well.com>

To: hpstapp@lbl.gov

stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov wrote:

> Dear Jack,

>

> You are not reading what I said, and are not

> understanding what Gisin said. Let me spell

> things out in more detail.

[Jack]

Funny I perceive same about you.:-) So what is the problem? = I think=20 I have

been quite clear and specific. Please point out your = specific=20 arguments with

specific ideas I presented.

>

> [Stapp]

> What I said is that according to the equations of = relativistic=20 quantum

> field theory the predictions about observations do not = depend=20 on

> the way one chooses the frame in which the collapse = occur=20 "now",

> i.e., occur along the constant-time surfaces. This is = not=20 debatable:

> you can check it for yourself in the simple EPR-type=20 experiments that we

> are talking about.

[Jack]

I completely agree with the above and have consistently = agreed with=20 it. That

is "Theory 1". You have proposed a DIFFERENT theory that I = call=20 "Theory 2".

Your "Theory 2" is a RESTRICTION of "Theory 1" in which=20 ADDITIONALLY:

A. There is a preferred global frame PGF (i.e. 3D foliation = of=20 unquantized

classical 4D space-time) of absolute rest.

B. That PGF frame is the Hubble flow commonly called the=20 "cosmological rest

frame" in which the cosmic microwave black body background = is=20 maximally

isotropic in each local coordinate "chart" from 4D manifold = point=20 to its local

tangent space fiber whose overlaps into an "atlas" cover = the 4D=20 manifold.

C. Within context of your OR version of quantum theory, the = objectively real

but nonlocal qubit speed is infinite in that PGF.

This new "Theory 2" is a modification of "Theory 1". Your=20 "inconsistency" your

"error" in this argument is that you fool yourself into = thinking=20 that there is

no significant difference between the two theories! Any = argument=20 you make

about Tomonanga-Schwinger AKA "Theory 1" is completely = irrelevant=20 because your

actual Theory 2 violates Lorentz invariace i.e. there is an = absolute rest

frame, therefore, there is an absolute speed u relative to = that=20 rest frame.

You can use local Lorentz transformations in the local = tangent=20 spaces to

compare data in the absolutely moving LIF that detects = cosmic=20 microwave

anisotropy with the PGF in which there is no such = anisotropy.=20 Therefore, in

Class III experiments where both detectors D1 and D2 at = events E1'=20 and E2'

respectively are in motion with speed u in same space = direction,=20 the qubit

speed in their frame is not infinite, but is c^2/u. = Therefore, as=20 Gisin et-al

explicitly wrote one can do an experiment in which the "EPR = correlations

disappear" in the absolutely moving frame. In contrast, the = EPR=20 correlations

never disappear in the PGF of Class I where both detectors = D1 and=20 D2 are at

rest in the PGF with a DIFFERENT pair of events E1 and = E2.

Note:

Class I experiments both D1 and D2 have absolute speeds u = =3D 0 with=20 E1, E2

detection events. EPR correlations NEVER disappear.

Class III experiments both D1 and D2 have same absolute = speeds u=20 not zero in

same space direction with E1', E2' detection events. = When

L/T > c^2/u

EPR correlations disappear

L is space coordinate separation between E1 and E2 in = common=20 absolutely moving

frame of oth D1 and D2, T is time coordinate = separation.

When

L/T < c^2/u we see the EPR correlations.

In ALL cases, observers in relatively moving frames all get = the=20 SAME answer to

the question

Are EPR correlations observed or not? YES or NO?

in Theory 2.

The point is that Class I experiments and Class III = experiments=20 are

objectively different according Theory 2. They are NOT = objectively=20 different

according to Theory 1. Therefore, according to Theory 1 = your

"Tomonaga-Schwinger", EPR correlations in Class III will = NEVER=20 disappear, but

that is NOT the theory you have proposed. Your theory is = Theory 2,=20 not the

original Tomonaga-Schwinger theory from circa 1947 before = they even=20 knew about

the cosmic microwave background. You remind me of a lawyer = who=20 brings out some

musty old case. :-)

Now I have given a very clearly articulated precise = logically sound=20 chain of

argument. You must refute it in kind on its own terms not = by vague=20 handwaving

generalities. Also you cannot appeal to Theory 1 AS IF it = were=20 equivalent to

Theory 2 as, in fact you are doing. You are not playing = fair, you=20 are doing a

bait nd switch "shell game". Everything you say below is = for Theory=20 1. I agree

with it for Theory 1, so it is all irrelevant to the real=20 argument.

You say you are selling garlic. You give me the bag. I look = in the=20 bag, and I

see it is onions. You start telling me how to cook the = onions, when=20 in fact I

want to cook the garlic. That is what is going on here. You = pretend=20 the onions

are garlic.

[Henry]

> That is, one can choose the surfaces of = instantaneous

> collapse so that the experiment on the right occur = first, or=20 that the

> experiment on the left occurs first, or that both = experiments=20 occur at

> the same time.

[Jack]

This is for fixed events E1 and E2 seen in different time = orders by=20 different

observers. Both Theory 1 and Theory 2 are invariant in this = sense=20 as I showed

above. You are not thinking clearly enough. The issue is = that Class=20 I

experiments involve event pairs {E1,E1}. In contrast Class = III=20 experiments

involve a DIFFERENT pair of events {E1',E2'}. In the = context of=20 Theory 2

{E1,E2} and {E1',E2'} are objectively different, = corresponding to=20 different

"total experimental arrangements". Of course different = observers=20 looking at

the SAME experiment, whether Class I or Class III will = agree=20 whether or not

EPR correlations disappeared.

The important distinction here is that Theory 1 says they = will=20 never disappear

in Class III if they do not in Class I because the absolute = speed u=20 does not

exist in Theory 1. It does exist in Theory 2. Therefore, in = Theory=20 1 there is

no objective difference between Class I and Class III. In = Theory 2=20 there is!

That's the point you are not understanding. You cannot have = your=20 cake and eat

it too in this case. :-)

> All three choices give the same predictions. In the = first

> case, the two possible outcomes on the right, up and = down,=20 each occur with

> probability 1/2. Then one can easily compute for each = case, U=20 or D, the

> probabilities for the two possible outcomes on the = left, U'=20 and D',

> and then compute the observable correlation=20 UU'-UD'-DU'+DD'.

> In the second case the order of doing the computation = is=20 reversed,

> but you will easily confirm that the predictions about = observations

> are identical. The third case gives the same = predictions. This=20 is just a

> special case of the general result in relativistic = quantum=20 field theory

> that the predictions about observations do not depend = on the=20 frame in

> which the instantaneous collapses occur. This is a key = element=20 of the

> claim that relativistic quantum field theory is=20 "relativistic".

> It is essential for this `relativistic character' of=20 relativistic

> quantum field theory that the collapses be = instantaneous.

>

> Given this result that the predictions about = observations do=20 not

> depend on the choices of the surfaces along which the=20 instantaneous

> collapses occur, it follows that one cannot deduce=20 anything

> about the choices of these surfaces from experiments = in=20 which

> the predictions are satified.

>

> So what were Gisin et. al. doing?

>

> They noted that some physicists were boggled by the = idea of=20 instantaneous

> effects in faraway places,and were proposing that the=20 collapses

> propagate at some high but finite velocity, in some = frame.

> The most natural guess for this frame is the rest = frame of the=20 cosmic

> background radiation. If the collapse were to = propagate at=20 finite velocity

> in this way the prediction of quantum theory would be = violated=20 for certain

> placements of the experiments: if the two experiments = are=20 sufficiently

> close to instantaneous in this special frame then the = effect=20 of the

> faraway experiments would not arrive in time to affect = the=20 nearby

> outcomes, and the correlations in the EPR experiments = would=20 disappear.

>

> This would of course disrupt the relativistic = properties=20 that

> are so nicely preserved if the transfers are=20 instantaneous.

> Still, science rests on the experimenal testing

> of even the most secure ideas, so Gisin et. al. noted = that

> the conformity of their experimental results to the=20 orthodox

> predictions did rule out the idea of finite velocity=20 transfer

> in this particulr frame unless that velocity was

> greater than 1.5x10^4 c.

>

> But that result in no way alters the fact that=20 experimental

> results that *conform* to the orthodox predictions = provide

> no information about the surfaces along with the = collapses

> occur if these collapses are instantanteous, as they = are

> in the vN (and Tomonaga-Schwinger) theory.

>

> I hope this more detailed discussion of the = situation

> resolves our differences on this matter.

>

> Best regards,

>

> Henry

[Jack]

I will come back to this last part of your remarks later as = I have=20 to sign off

now.

Subject: Re: We Are Already There!!!!! (Farley in reply to = Dan=20 S.)

Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 19:43:13 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: "Gary S. Bekkum" <gbekkum@mediaone.net>

"Gary S. Bekkum" wrote:

> [Dick Farley <cloudrider@aol.com>]

>

> Only problem is that Dr. Vallee is, of course, "one of = them,"

> perhaps like so many in this field, what Robin Andrews = Quail=20 (in Atlanta, a

> long-time associate of Dr. Raymond Moody) has called = "E.T.I.=20 Prodigies,"

> (people either abducted or influenced by seeming = "alien=20 mindset" which leaves

> the percipient, either consciously or unconsciously) = possessed=20 of a body of

> knowledge and a "sense" about such matters beyond = education or=20 years.

[Jack]

Yes, this is a real phenomenon. I am part of it obviously.=20 Saul-Paul and I have been

trying to find Wheeler's student in Robert Lindner's "50 = Minute=20 Hour" who had many

detailed notebooks of actual physics from his ET = encounters. There=20 was at note about

in in the Battelle Rencontres I once owned for many years = which is=20 now lost. We can't

find another copy.

[This is Mr.Bekkum, I presume? Watch that format!]

>

> There are several logical reasons that "alien = knowledge" might=20 be "seeded" into

> human minds.

[Jack]

Henry Miller refers to it on some essay on French Alchemy = in which=20 he also cites Carlo

Suares who influenced me and Fred Alan Wolf in Paris in = 1973-4 in=20 the writing of

"Space-Time and Beyond". Miller cites an ancient society = that is=20 consistent with

"Priory de' Sion", Knights Templar et-al fringe = mythology.

> [Gary]

>

> Physical "material" contact might consist of = "teleported" mind=20 fields, a far more

> economical method of travel when information is the = primary=20 commodity. Such

> interaction may require bio-nanotechnological = manipulation, or=20 perhaps be purely

> "post quantum" as suggested by Sarfatti.

[Jack]

There is no "perhaps", it's the only way Jose.

> [Gary]

>

> The problem for an advanced alien "remote controlled" = analysis=20 of the human

> species would be to find individuals that could be = manipulated=20 as "agents"

> without revealing the alien presence directly.

[Jack]

Correct.

> [Gary]

>

> Telepathic contact (essentially technological = manipulation of=20 the human "mind

> fields") would be applied to test the behavior of the = human=20 subjects. Perhaps

> over the extended lifetime of an individual, the alien = intelligence would become

> confident that the "human subject" had been adequately = "conditioned" to the

> invasive "mind-field technology" so that more = sophisticated=20 manipulation could

> be initiated.

[Jack]

That's a nice rendition Gary - or what ever ET has taken = over your=20 body as in "Being

John Malkevich". :-)

> [Gary]

>

> One might expect a wide range of "mental experiments" = to test=20 behavior, mental

> capacity etc. Beyond this point, the "conditioned = human=20 subject", accepting the

> invasive "alien mind field" as a given aspect of their = life,=20 would be ready for

> investigations of the state of human technology. = Careful=20 introduction of samples

> of "alien technological information" into the "human = mind=20 field" of the "human

> agent" would proceed. Seeking correlations with the = "alien=20 technology" the "human

> agent" would begin searching the existing human = knowledge=20 base. Following the

> "subliminal clues" introduced by the "alien = scientists", the=20 "human agent" would

> attempt to access any human technological information=20 available to him. One

> would expect that the introduction of the internet = might=20 accelerate such

> investigations, as well as allow the "alien = scientists" a=20 practical means of

> networking their "human agents".

[Jack]

Very good Gary. That's exactly what is happening. You are = right on=20 target - for a

change. :-)

>

[Gary]

> The orchestration of the "human agents" would proceed = world=20 wide. Individuals

> found mentally unstable as a result of the invasive = "mind=20 field" conditioning

> would be terminated from the network. More robust = individuals=20 would be placed

> into positions connecting them into the political and=20 technological

> infrastructure. After making contact with these = individuals,=20 others with the

> resources necessary for the "alien cause" would be = "accessed"=20 - they might have a

> life-changing hypnogogic "contact" experience or = receive=20 "information" strongly

> hinting of the alien presence (without directly = revealing=20 their existence). The

> recent revelations by astronaut Gordon Cooper suggests = something of this nature,

> where his "alien contact person" was allegedly able to = supply=20 critical

> information regarding a design flaw in the space = shuttle, but=20 apparently was

> never supplied with any genuine new "alien = technology".

[Jack]

Carlo Suares's wife Nadine described a similar experience = on her=20 medical exam in

dermatology in Toledo, Spain. She had not studied for it, = and the=20 "spirit" of a dead

Sarfatti physician from Moorish times guided her answers = and she=20 passed with a high

grade - or so she told me in Paris in 1973 at their = penthouse at=20 the edge of the

Champs de Mars near the base of the Eiffel Tower.

> [Gary]

>

> The "alien agenda" would thus be seen as careful = manipulation=20 of "useful human

> idiots" :-)

[Jack]

Oh! So that's why they chose me, Fred Wolf, Nick Herbert = et-al -=20 sort of like "The

Three Stooges" meet SPECTRA? :-)

[Gary]

> for gathering of information on the state of the human = technological

> art, or perhaps for more sinister purposes. One might = wonder=20 if a violent and

> destructive species, advancing technologically, might = be seen=20 as too dangerous to

> be allowed to continue. In this variation of "The Day = the=20 Earth Stood Still" the

> aliens initiate human self-destruction by placing = their agents=20 into positions of

> technological and political power, and then directing = them=20 into some irreducible

> global disaster that sets nations against each other, = leading=20 to a final

> conflagration and elimination of the "human menace"; = this all=20 carefully

> orchestrated from a vast distance, without any real = need to=20 visit our planet.

[Jack]

That's a pretty dim view of things. You just went off the = mark. We=20 are the last great

hope - the last line of defense. We shall endure. I = guarantee=20 it.

> [Gary]

>

> One could expand this idea easily to the idea of = multiple=20 alien agendas,

> interacting via various human operatives or even = actual=20 material "contact" when

> necessary. Ingo Swann suggests as much in his book=20 "Penetration" in which he

> recounts his experiences with a "deep black agency" = interested=20 in UFOs.

--

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Subject: Re: Relativistic EPR-Bell Experiments

Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 22:08:46 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: hpstapp@lbl.gov

Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.skeptic

 

stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov wrote:

> Dear Jack,

>

> My theory IS theory Tomonaga-Schwinger theory (Theory = 1) with=20 this

> particular frame taken to be the frame in which the=20 instantaneous

> collapses occur.

[Jack]

I understand that is what you believe. My point here is = that for=20 reasons I

have given in detail now several times summarized in the=20 picture

http://stardrive.org/Jack/PFI.jpg

That you cannot consistently hold such a position.

> There is no significant difference between my = theory

> and Tomonaga-Schwinger theory with that particular = choice of=20 the

> surfaces along which their instantaneous collapses = occur=20 because there

> is no computational difference: the two theories are = one,=20 except that

> from the T-S viewpoint one stresses the fact other = frames=20 could be used

> to give the same predictions.

[Jack]

Let me see if I can spell out again what I think is the = confusion=20 here. Look

at the picture in

http://stardrive.org/Jack/PFI.jpg

Look at the black lines representing the Hubble flow. Look = at the=20 two events

E1 and E2 in black. E1 and E2 are simultaneous in the = Hubble flow=20 frame.

First let's forget about quantum theory and especially = "collapse".=20 We all

agree, you me and Stan Klein, that different observers = moving=20 uniformly to

the Hubble flow frame will see different time orders for = those two=20 definite

actual happening events. Some will see E1 before E2, some = will see=20 E1 after

E2. We also all agree, that all observers looking at these = same two=20 events

E1 and E2 must agree as to what happened in any good = theory. So if=20 EPR

correlations do not disappear in an ensemble {E1,E2} of = equivalent=20 E1E2

events, all observers no matter how they are moving = relative to=20 those

definite actual pairs of events must agree that the EPR=20 correlations do not

disappear, for example. I call this the fundamental = ontological=20 principle

that we all agree must be obeyed by any good physical = theory. So in=20 this

general ontological sense, the spacelike foliations, i.e. = the=20 different

perspectives of different observers looking at the same = sets of=20 actual

events, don't matter. All theories, whether Theory 1 = without a=20 preferred

frame of absolute global rest ("aether") and without = "absolute=20 uniform

velocities", or whether Theory 2 with a preferred frame of = absolute=20 global

rest ("aether") and with "absolute uniform velocities" must = obey=20 the above

fundamental metaphysical ontological principle. I assume no = one=20 objects so

far?

Now Henry, when you say "one stresses the fact other frames = could=20 be used to

give the same predictions" that is simply the fundamental=20 ontological

principle and it is much more general than the special case = of it=20 called

Lorentz invariance.

When Henry you write:

"There is no significant difference between my theory

and Tomonaga-Schwinger theory with that particular choice = of=20 the

surfaces along which their instantaneous collapses occur = because=20 there

is no computational difference: the two theories are one, = except=20 that

from the T-S viewpoint one stresses the fact other frames = could be=20 used

to give the same predictions."

That is false IMO. As soon as you say there is an = instantaneous=20 collapse you

have stepped beyond T-S theory. I have Tomonaga's paper in = front of=20 me "On a

relativistically invariant formulation of the quantum = theory of=20 fields" from

1946 p. 156 of Schwinger's QED (Dover) and no where do I = see any=20 mention of

choosing a spacelike foliation in which a "collapse" will=20 happen

"instantly". I see things like Lorentz invariance of the = theory=20 which

correspond to the above fundamental metaphysical = ontological=20 principle, but

not to anything as specific as what you have suggested.

Going back to the black markings in=20 http://stardrive.org/Jack/PFI.jpg we see

two black vertical world lines D1 and D2 for two detectors=20 relatively at

rest to each other and to the Hubble flow foliation into = spacelike=20 surfaces.

We also see two lightlike world lines at 45 & 135 = degrees for=20 the two light

signals from the common momentarily coincident origins of = the=20 frames S and

S'. S at rest in the Hubble flow and S' moving in a fixed = space=20 direction

with speed u relative to it. The events E1 and E2 in black = are=20 the

intersections of the lightlike lines with the vertical = timelike=20 lines of

detectors D1 and D2 respectively.

Now look at the red markings in=20 http://stardrive.org/Jack/PFI.jpg

We see two slanted timelike world lines D1' and D2' for a = different=20 pair of

detectors than D1 and D2. The moving detectors and are at = rest=20 relative to

each other in frame S' and the intersections of their world = lines=20 with the

same two lightlike world lines are E1' and E2' = respectively.=20 Quite

obviously, the event pairs (E1,E2) are not the same as the = event=20 pairs

(E1',E2'). All observers at rest in any arbitrary spacelike = foliation will

agree that there are two distinct pairs of events here.

The question before us is whether there is any significant = quantum=20 physical

difference between these two pairs of events? Whether or = not there=20 is such a

quantum physical difference will be theory dependent. = However, what=20 is not

theory-dependent is the metaphysical requirement that the=20 fundamental

ontological principle be obeyed by all good theories. = Indeed=20 the

metaphysical ontological principle is a guiding principle = for=20 selecting good

physical theories. We can argue that of course, but I think = any=20 physicist

worth his salt will not wish to renounce this metaphysical=20 ontological

principle? Renouncing it means extreme unreality psychosis = that=20 there is no

"there" out there. That it is all in the mind, chimeras of = the=20 stream of

consciousness, everything is subjective impressionistic = etc.

Henry, you are confounding this metaphysical ontological = principle=20 with a

very special physical instance of it called "Lorentz=20 invariance".

So, then Henry, you posit, that

1. There is such a thing as "OR" i.e. objective reduction = or=20 objective

collapse of a real psi field.

2. This OR process has a physically real "speed", I call it = the=20 "qubit

speed". We both agree that psi is an information field of = qubits=20 rather than

c-bits. I think we agree on that?

3. In particular the real qubit speed is infinite in the = particular=20 Hubble

flow foliation into spacelike surfaces.

Now at this point your presentation gets highly ambiguous = and=20 obscure. You

seem to say that the real qubit speed is infinite in any = arbitrary=20 spacelike

foliation. This is an obvious elementary inconsistency = since it=20 violates

v =3D (v' - u)/(1 - uv'/c^2)

Note I switched the placement of the primes compared to = earlier=20 messages to

be globally consistent with S and S' and E and E' = notations.

So error correction 1 to your thesis that Stan Klein seems = to agree=20 with me

on is that if the qubit speed of objective collapse is = infinite=20 i.e. v ->

infinity in the Hubble foliation, it is not infinite in any = other!=20 It will

be v =3D c^2/u in any other foliation. That is, c is the = only fixed=20 point of

local Lorentz transformations in the tangent bundle to the = curved=20 Hubble

flow foliation base space.

Furthermore, how you can claim that your additional = restrictions=20 above on

the Tomonaga-Schwinger theory does not change that theory=20 profoundly is

beyond my comprehension.

We now come to the physical idea of "absolute speed". In = Theory 2,=20 which I

claim is your actual theory though you suffer under a = delusion that=20 you are

doing Theory 1 (T-S). We have an "aether" theory not = equivalent to=20 TS

theory. The real objective physical situation of (E1',E2') = is=20 different from

that of (E1,E2) in that the former have a physically = detectable=20 absolute

speed u through the primordial aether and its cosmic black = body=20 radiation.

The absolute speed u is objectively measured by departure = from=20 isotropy of

the cosmic black body radiation red-blue shift pattern. = Therefore,=20 this idea

of absolute speed together with your idea of infinite qubit = speed=20 in the

Hubble flow imply that if u is big enough then the EPR = correlations=20 between

(E1',E2') will disappear when

L'/T' > c^2/u

because in that case the objectively real qubit speed u in = the S'=20 frame is

too slow to connect the two events (E1',E2'). L' is the = space=20 distance

between (E1',E2'), and T' is the time uncertainty in their=20 simultaneity due

to finite time resolution of the detectors and length of = light=20 signal wave

packet. Note that this Theory 2, different from T-S Theory = 1, still=20 obeys

the fundamental ontological principle. That is, all = observers=20 looking at

these same two events (E1',E2') agree that the EPR = correlations=20 disappear if

Theory 2 is the true theory. Theory 2 also says that the = EPR=20 correlations

will never disappear in the Hubble flow because only in the = Hubble=20 flow is

the qubit speed infinite so it can connect any two events = (E1,=20 E2)

corresponding to world line intersections of actual = happenings at=20 rest in

the Hubble flow no matter how far apart L and no matter how = short=20 the time

uncertainty T is in their simultaneity.

So the key property of Theory 2, that makes it different = from T-S=20 Theory 1,

noting that you, Henry do not grant this distinction, is = that,=20 since

(E1',E2') have an objectively real absolute common absolute = velocity u

relative to the aether Hubble flow, Einstein welcomed the = "aether"=20 back

officially into GR in 1924, he only banned it temporarily = in global=20 SR,

their EPR correlations (in the ensemble sense) can = disappear even=20 though

they never disappear for the inequivalent event pairs = (E1,E2) for=20 the same L

and T parameters. However, Theory 2 is perfectly compatible = with=20 the

fundamental ontological principle in that observers in = arbitrary=20 spacelike

foliations will all agree on whether or not the EPR = correlations=20 did

disappear for any particular ensembles {E1',E2'}. That is, = all=20 observers are

looking at the same set of unique actual historical = happenings.

The objective difference of this Theory 2 with T-S Theory 1 = is that=20 in

Theory 1 there is never an experimental difference between = what=20 happens with

{E1,E2} and what happens with {E1',E2'}for the same L and T = parameters. That

is because Theory 1 does not recognize any such thing as an = absolute uniform

speed through the aether as Theory 2 does.

[Henry Stapp]

> I also use that fact, but simply stipulate

> that in order to have a single coherent idea of an = objectively=20 existing

> and unambiguously defined universe I adopt the = viewpoint=20 that

> this one frame is the one that defines the objectively = real=20 situation.

> This is conceptually useful because it allows one to = have a=20 fixed idea

> of the actual physical universe, But the mathematical=20 equivalence between

> using this frame any other one of one's choosing for = any=20 computation

> of any prediction about observable ensure the = relativistic=20 invariance

> of the theory, because the only pertinent quantities = in=20 science,

> according to quantum thinking, are observable = quantities.

>

> In short, my theory IS theory 1, except for viewpoint, = and it=20 IS

> theory 1 as regards the point under discussion here, = which is=20 the

> impossibility of determining from data that conforms = to

> the standard predictions of theory 1 the frame in = which the=20 collapse

> occurs.

>

> > You can use local Lorentz transformations in the = local=20 tangent spaces to

>

> > compare data in the absolutely moving LIF that = detects=20 cosmic microwave

> > anisotropy with the PGF in which there is no such = anisotropy. Therefore,

> in

> > Class III experiments where both detectors D1 and = D2 at=20 events E1' and

> E2'

> > respectively are in motion with speed u in same = space=20 direction, the

> qubit

> > speed in their frame is not infinite, but is = c^2/u.=20 Therefore, as Gisin

> et-al

> > explicitly wrote one can do an experiment in = which the=20 "EPR correlations

>

> > disappear" in the absolutely moving frame. In = contrast,=20 the EPR

> correlations

> > never disappear in the PGF of Class I where both=20 detectors D1 and D2 are

> at

> > rest in the PGF with a DIFFERENT pair of events = E1 and=20 E2.

> >

> > Note:

> >

> > Class I experiments both D1 and D2 have absolute = speeds u=20 =3D 0 with E1,

> E2

> > detection events. EPR correlations NEVER = disappear.

> >

> > Class III experiments both D1 and D2 have same = absolute=20 speeds u not

> zero in

> > same space direction with E1', E2' detection = events.=20 When

> >

> > L/T > c^2/u

> >

> > EPR correlations disappear

> >

>

> The EPR correlation never disappears in standard = theory and=20 never

> disappears in my theory. It does disappear in = theories, such=20 as the

> one's considered by Gisin et.al. where the propagation = is=20 NOT

> instantaneous. That is the essential point.

[Jack]

Therefore, your inconsistency is in saying that there is a = real=20 speed of

real collapse in T-S and that that real speed is infinite = in the=20 special

Hubble foliation. Because if it is infinite in that Hubble=20 foliation, it is,

according to local special relativity, finite in any other=20 foliation into

spacelike surfaces and, therefore, you have slipped into = the=20 "theories, such

as the one's considered by Gisin et.al. where the = propagation is=20 NOT

instantaneous".

So I think I have clearly isolated your conceptual error = here.

>

>

> > L is space coordinate separation between E1 and = E2 in=20 common absolutely

> moving

> > frame of oth D1 and D2, T is time coordinate=20 separation.

> >

> > When

> >

> > L/T < c^2/u we see the EPR correlations.

> >

> >

> > In ALL cases, observers in relatively moving = frames all=20 get the SAME

> answer to

> > the question

> >

> > Are EPR correlations observed or not? YES or = NO?

> >

> > in Theory 2.

> >

>

> And that answer is YES!

>

> > The point is that Class I experiments and Class = III=20 experiments are

> > objectively different according Theory 2. They = are NOT=20 objectively

> different

> > according to Theory 1. Therefore, according to = Theory 1=20 your

> > "Tomonaga-Schwinger", EPR correlations in Class = III will=20 NEVER

> disappear, but

> > that is NOT the theory you have proposed.

>

> The theory that I propose IS Tomonaga-Schwinger with = ONE of=20 their infinite

>

> set of possible rules for the instantaneous collapse = taken to=20 be the real

> one. Hence in my theory the EPR correlations NEVER=20 disappear.

>

> > Your theory is Theory 2, not the

> > original Tomonaga-Schwinger theory from circa = 1947 before=20 they even knew

> about

> > the cosmic microwave background.

>

> Back then it seemed unreasonable to believe that ONE = of the=20 infinite

> set of possible rules was the real one, but NOW nature = herself

> presents us with a natural possibility for the favored = rule.

>

> >

> > Now I have given a very clearly articulated = precise=20 logically sound

> chain of

> > argument. You must refute it in kind on its own = terms not=20 by vague

> handwaving

> > generalities. Also you cannot appeal to Theory 1 = AS IF it=20 were

> equivalent to

> > Theory 2 as, in fact you are doing. You are not = playing=20 fair, you are

> doing a

> > bait nd switch "shell game". Everything you say = below is=20 for Theory 1. I

> agree

> > with it for Theory 1, so it is all irrelevant to = the real=20 argument.

>

> I have explained why my theory is equivalent to theory = 1, as=20 regards

> the impossibility of issue of deducing from = experiments that=20 conform to

> the predictions of QT information about the frame that = is=20 taken to be

> real: the argument in theory 1 that one cannot deduce = from=20 data that

> conforms to QT the choice of the rule is used to = define=20 instantaneous

> is IDENTICAL to the argument that one cannot use this = data to=20 determine

> which frame is the real one in which the collapse = occurs=20 instantaneously.

> Your example of a failure of EPR arises in models such = as the=20 ones

> considered by Gisin that are not equivalent to theory = 1 in=20 some special

> frame. But it cannot arise in my model, which is = essentially=20 just one

> of the infinitude of equivalent model that constitute = theory=20 1.

> >

> > You say you are selling garlic. You give me the = bag. I=20 look in the bag,

> and I

> > see it is onions. You start telling me how to = cook the=20 onions, when in

> fact I

> > want to cook the garlic. That is what is going on = here.=20 You pretend the

> onions

> > are garlic.

> >

> >

> My model IS one particular specialization of theory 1, = all=20 specializations

>

> of which give the same predictions.

>

> >

> > [Henry]

> >

> > > That is, one can choose the surfaces of=20 instantaneous

> > > collapse so that the experiment on the right = occur=20 first, or that the

> > > experiment on the left occurs first, or that = both=20 experiments occur at

>

> > > the same time.

> >

> > [Jack]

> > This is for fixed events E1 and E2 seen in = different time=20 orders by

> different

> > observers. Both Theory 1 and Theory 2 are = invariant in=20 this sense as I

> showed

> > above. You are not thinking clearly enough. The = issue is=20 that Class I

> > experiments involve event pairs {E1,E1}. In = contrast=20 Class III

> experiments

> > involve a DIFFERENT pair of events {E1',E2'}. In = the=20 context of Theory

> 2

> > {E1,E2} and {E1',E2'} are objectively different,=20 corresponding to

> different

> > "total experimental arrangements". Of course = different=20 observers looking

> at

> > the SAME experiment, whether Class I or Class III = will=20 agree whether or

> not

> > EPR correlations disappeared.

> > The important distinction here is that Theory 1 = says they=20 will never

> disappear

> > in Class III if they do not in Class I because = the=20 absolute speed u does

> not

> > exist in Theory 1. It does exist in Theory 2. = Therefore,=20 in Theory 1

> there is

> > no objective difference between Class I and Class = III. In=20 Theory 2 there

> is!

> > That's the point you are not understanding. You = cannot=20 have your cake

> and eat

> > it too in this case. :-)

> >

>

> My theory is defined to be ONE of the infinitude of = equivalent=20 models

> specified in T-S theory (Theory 1). hence there will = be no=20 disappearance

> of EPR correlations. The fact that a special velocity = appears=20 in my theory

>

> at the ontological level does not imply that this = velocity=20 will appear

> in predictions about observations, and in fact this = velocity=20 does not

> appear in any such prediction.

>

> > > All three choices give the same predictions. = In the=20 first

> > > case, the two possible outcomes on the = right, up and=20 down, each occur

> with

> > > probability 1/2. Then one can easily compute = for=20 each case, U or D,

> the

> > > probabilities for the two possible outcomes = on the=20 left, U' and D',

> > > and then compute the observable correlation=20 UU'-UD'-DU'+DD'.

> > > In the second case the order of doing the=20 computation is reversed,

> > > but you will easily confirm that the = predictions=20 about observations

> > > are identical. The third case gives the same = predictions. This is

> just a

> > > special case of the general result in = relativistic=20 quantum field

> theory

> > > that the predictions about observations do = not=20 depend on the frame in

> > > which the instantaneous collapses occur. = This is a=20 key element of the

>

> > > claim that relativistic quantum field theory = is=20 "relativistic".

> > > It is essential for this `relativistic = character' of=20 relativistic

> > > quantum field theory that the collapses be=20 instantaneous.

> > >

> > > Given this result that the predictions about = observations do not

> > > depend on the choices of the surfaces along = which=20 the instantaneous

> > > collapses occur, it follows that one cannot = deduce=20 anything

> > > about the choices of these surfaces from = experiments=20 in which

> > > the predictions are satified.

> > >

>

> That is the bottom line!

>

> > > So what were Gisin et. al. doing?

> > >

> > > They noted that some physicists were boggled = by the=20 idea of

> instantaneous

> > > effects in faraway places,and were proposing = that=20 the collapses

> > > propagate at some high but finite velocity, = in some=20 frame.

> > > The most natural guess for this frame is the = rest=20 frame of the cosmic

> > > background radiation. If the collapse were = to=20 propagate at finite

> velocity

> > > in this way the prediction of quantum theory = would=20 be violated for

> certain

> > > placements of the experiments: if the two=20 experiments are sufficiently

>

> > > close to instantaneous in this special frame = then=20 the effect of the

> > > faraway experiments would not arrive in time = to=20 affect the nearby

> > > outcomes, and the correlations in the EPR=20 experiments would disappear.

>

> > >

> > > This would of course disrupt the = relativistic=20 properties that

> > > are so nicely preserved if the transfers are = instantaneous.

> > > Still, science rests on the experimenal = testing

> > > of even the most secure ideas, so Gisin et. = al.=20 noted that

> > > the conformity of their experimental results = to the=20 orthodox

> > > predictions did rule out the idea of finite = velocity=20 transfer

> > > in this particulr frame unless that velocity = was

> > > greater than 1.5x10^4 c.

> > >

> > > But that result in no way alters the fact = that=20 experimental

> > > results that *conform* to the orthodox = predictions=20 provide

> > > no information about the surfaces along with = the=20 collapses

> > > occur if these collapses are instantanteous, = as they=20 are

> > > in the vN (and Tomonaga-Schwinger) = theory.

> > >

> > > I hope this more detailed discussion of the=20 situation

> > > resolves our differences on this matter.

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > >

> > > Henry

> >

> > [Jack]

> >

> > I will come back to this last part of your = remarks later=20 as I have to

> > sign off now.

> >

> >

--

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http://stardrive.org

 

Subject: Re: We Are Already There!!!!! (Farley in reply to = Dan=20 S.)

Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 22:25:43 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: "Gary S. Bekkum" <gbekkum@mediaone.net>

"Gary S. Bekkum" wrote:

> "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" wrote:

>

>

> > [Gary previously]

> >

> > > for gathering of information on the state of = the=20 human technological

> > > art, or perhaps for more sinister purposes. = One=20 might wonder if a violent and

> > > destructive species, advancing = technologically,=20 might be seen as too dangerous to

> > > be allowed to continue. In this variation of = "The=20 Day the Earth Stood Still" the

> > > aliens initiate human self-destruction by = placing=20 their agents into positions of

> > > technological and political power, and then=20 directing them into some irreducible

> > > global disaster that sets nations against = each=20 other, leading to a final

> > > conflagration and elimination of the "human = menace";=20 this all carefully

> > > orchestrated from a vast distance, without = any real=20 need to visit our planet.

> >

> > [Jack]

> >

> > That's a pretty dim view of things. You just went = off the=20 mark. We are the last great

> > hope - the last line of defense. We shall endure. = I=20 guarantee it.

>

> [Gary now]

>

> I think it is advisable to "proceed with caution"; we = don't=20 know the

> true agenda(s) involved; the nature of the acting = "forces"; to=20 what

> extent any interest in the human race might be limited = to our=20 usefulness

> as "experimental subjects"; etc.

>

> No doubt the lab rat, having been fed and cared for = all of its=20 life, is

> subject to quite a shock when it receives an = injection, has=20 its head

> snipped off with a scissors, and its brain mashed to a = pulp.

Yes, I agree that this is prudent. That's why I think the=20 Pollyannas that "Oh Boy ET is

here and they are good, all-knowing and wise and we should = have=20 simple faith in them" etc.

is very dangerous if ET is real. If they are not really = here no big=20 deal. However, my best

evidence and personal subjective experience is that THEY = ARE HERE=20 and have been for quite

awhile. This is why I advocate a strong military = preparedness with=20 top priority to properly

negotiate with ET from a position of some strength. The = situation=20 is not unlike the Cold

War. There is obviously some reason why we have not been = annhilated=20 or taken over other

than their good intentions and sensitive compassion for our = feelings - as the abductions

show. Whatever it is, we clearly have a short window of = opportunity=20 to get our act together

militarily. No doubt ET is not monolithic and some of them = are on=20 our side. Of course, I do

not advocate a stupid aggressive policy with ET anymore = than I=20 would with any terrestrial

nation.

>

>

> IMHO it is wrong to arbitrarily equate human religion = with ET;=20 there are

> fundamental archetypal patterns in nature that may = manifest=20 themselves

> in various forms but they are generally universal = (they are=20 experienced

> as primal emotions expressed in visual imagery, etc.) = What=20 is

> interesting is that primal emotions often seem to = dress=20 themselves

> incarnate - I am reminded of the 1950's science = fiction film=20 classic

> "Forbidden Planet" and how the primal unconscious = emotions of=20 the humans

> inadvertently interfaced with the awesome technology = of the=20 "Krell".

>

> The real danger IMHO is the improper mixing of any=20 understanding of ET

> (tech) with the true spiritual nature of being. This = type of=20 category

> error is the true meaning of "antichrist" (never = identified=20 with a

> person, but a doctrine of denying the true source of=20 existence). This

> was a lesson that the "angels" always taught the = humans that=20 encountered

> them. Absolute power (even "angelic" power) cannot = replace the=20 wonder

> of the infinite.

>

> --

> "The only justification for our concepts and system of = concepts is that

> they serve to represent the complex of our = experiences; beyond=20 this they

> have no legitimacy."

> Albert Einstein - "The Meaning of Relativity"

>

> "No formal 'talent', 'wunderkind abilities', personal=20 ambitions and

> relations, technical power, or material prosperity can = replace=20 the power

> of creation coming only from the open, free = interaction with=20 the Truth."

> Andrei Kirilyuk - "Universal Concept of = Complexity"

>

> "Through this 'Key' Divine Intention can be connected = to our=20 world, and

> to other may be worlds. Some of those worlds can be = the worlds=20 of our

> dreams. "The 'Key to the Universe' is the archetype of = evolution that

> now we know and can use consciously."

> George Ryazanov - "Key to Absolute Flight"

>

> "That's the effect of living backwards," the Queen = said=20 kindly: "it

> always makes one a little giddy at first...but there's = one=20 great

> advantage in it, that one's memory works both = ways."

> Lewis Carroll - "Through the Looking Glass"

--

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Subject: UFO/ET Threat Assessement

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 14:37:45 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: yokatta@oxy.edu

CC: William Church <iwar@iwar.org>

Memorandum for the record.

This sums up the UFO Reality nicely and its high priority=20 relationship to

planetary defence issues. I agree with the "threat = assessment"=20 below.

For relevant background reading I suggest Erik Davis's=20 "Techgnosis".

yokatta@oxy.edu wrote:

> Hi Guys,

>

> Some general comments on this thread:

>

> Yes, I strongly suspect that, as Jack put it, "THEY = ARE HERE=20 and have been

> for quite a while." My hunch is that they've been part = of=20 our

> "environment" for at least ten millennia, if not = slightly=20 longer--that is,

> since the end of the last ice age. Indeed, I suspect = that=20 their initial

> probes arrived here as the ice caps were receding, and = they=20 quickly

> realized--perhaps from a parallel episode in their own = prehistory--that

> this would bring about some profound evolutionary = changes in=20 the then

> extremely simple technology of the dominant species, = that is,=20 us. And so

> the observations/experiments, etc., began. I don't = think all=20 this was

> done from a distance, as someone suggested. On the = contrary, I=20 think it's

> always been up close and personal, even more so before = we=20 finally began to

> evolve a complex technology a couple of hundred years = ago. As=20 I've

> mentioned before, I suspect that for millennia they = maintained=20 close-in

> bases near most major human population centers; in = pre-modern=20 Europe,

> these came to be known as "fairylands." People, = especially=20 children, seem

> to have been abducted and conditioned at these bases = by=20 highly

> sophisticated mind-control techniques that we're only=20 beginning to

> discover independently (maybe with a little nudge from = some of=20 our more

> sympathetic "friends"?).

>

> The genetic experiments and hybridization program = clearly=20 began early on,

> but in recent years (i.e., the last century or so) it = seems to=20 have taken

> on an urgency not detectable in pre-modern accounts of = what=20 were almost

> certainly human-alien encounters. Indeed, this is why = my=20 friend David

> Jacobs thinks the whole business began about a century = ago; I=20 think he's

> overlooking the vast amount of ancient folkloric and=20 mythological evidence

> for the alien presence, although I think he's right in = suggesting that,

> for reasons that are still obscure, the hybridization = program=20 went into

> high gear about a century ago. Understanding these = reasons=20 should, IMHO,

> be a high priority among UFOlogigsts, as they may well = have a=20 bearing on

> how large Jack's "window of opportunity" is.

>

> Anyway, I also agree with the observation that you = can't trace=20 all human

> religion back to the ET presence. Yes, there's = something about=20 the human

> brain--maybe its bicameral structure--that demands = closure: if=20 the right

> hemisphere can't come up with a logical, linear = explanation=20 for some

> phenomenon or event--like the Sun, the Moon, death, = illness,=20 earthquakes,

> hurricanes, etc.--the right hemisphere will posit a = metaphor=20 that takes

> care of the situation, one with which the left = hemisphere can=20 engage. I

> suspect this sort of thing has been going on ever = since we=20 began to

> lateralize ca. 2.5M years ago in NE Africa, that is, = the point=20 where

> technology--as opposed to simple tool use--began.

>

> But the alien presence has almost certainly affected = the SHAPE=20 of human

> religious beliefs everywhere since the end of the = Upper=20 Palaeolithic--and

> that includes the rebel aliens who gave rise to the = myths of=20 Prometheus,

> Quetzalcoatl, et al., as well as the worldwide = accounts of the=20 "little

> people" and other trickster figures (e.g., "Coyote" = among=20 Native Americans

> in the western half of North America). Indeed, I think = the=20 critical study

> of world mythology and folklore from this perspective, = coupled=20 with

> carefully deconstructed abductee accounts, can yielded = a vast=20 amount of

> information--nay, "intelligence"--about the ETs that = might=20 prove extremely

> useful in any future confrontation with the little = buggers and=20 their

> genetically engineered hybrids. For example, the = ubiquitous=20 important of

> the Pleiades in these ancient & ethnographic texts = leads=20 me to believe

> that at least some of them hail from that region of = the=20 Galaxy.

>

> Also, someone mentioned the "Priory of Sion" [or Zion] = as=20 having ancient

> alien connections. For a interesting discussion of the = history=20 of this

> curious institution, although not from a UFOlogical=20 standpoint, see

> Michael Baignet, Richard Leigh, and Henry Moore, HOLY = BLOOD,=20 HOLY GRAIL

> (1982), which traces the Priory back to the late 12th = century,=20 when it

> spun off from the Knights Templars. According to = Baignet, et=20 al., the

> "Masters" of Sion have included Leonardo da Vinci, = Isaac=20 Newton, Claude

> Debussey, and Jean Cocteau. Whether or not all these = famous=20 folks were in

> fact involved with the Priory, the institution itself = has all=20 the earmarks

> of an alien-dominated cult, one that was perhaps = founded when=20 they

> realized they couldn't maintain tight control over the = Templars, in whose

> creation in 1118 they probably also had a surreptitous = hand.=20 The Priory

> appears to be yet another example of the plethora of=20 quasi-religious

> "buffer" groups established by the aliens to = facilitate their=20 programs (at

> the risk of ruffling some feathers, I would put = Mormonism,=20 Scientology,

> and Greer's CSETI in this category as well).

>

> Finally, I agree that they probably don't intend to = obliterate=20 us in the

> near future. Indeed, as Jack says, "There is obviously = some=20 reason why we

> have not been annihilated or taken over other than = their good=20 intentions

> and sensitive compassion for our feelings - as the = abductions=20 show." But,

> if Jacobs' reading of the situation is correct, we may = be in=20 for a shock

> as the "late-stage" hybrids become the dominant = humanoid=20 population on

> this planet, those genetically-unmodified humans who = are not=20 quietly

> eliminated are relegated to "reservations," where = they'll be=20 expected to

> die off after performing "useful" work for the aliens = and=20 their hybrid

> surrogates. To be sure, this assessment of the shape = of things=20 to come is

> perhaps overly pessimistic, but I for one still resent = being=20 at best

> patronized by these creatures (and their hybrids), and = at=20 worst treated as

> one of their lab rats. In short, I suggest that the = more we=20 can glean

> about them from the perceptions embedded in mythology = and=20 folklore, as

> well as in contemporary abductee accounts, the better = off=20 we'll be if and

> when the time comes to engage in face-to-face = negotiations=20 and/or some

> serious alien (and hybrid) butt-kicking.

>

> Cheers,

> Scott

>

> C. SCOTT LITTLETON "Any sufficiently evolved

> Professor of Anthropology technology is = indistinguishable

> Occidental College from magic."

> Los Angeles, CA 90041 --Arthur C. Clarke

> TEL (323) 259-2759

> FAX (323) 341-4969 "I think we're property...."

> http://www.oxy.edu/~yokatta/home.htm --Charles = Fort

>

> P.S. Question: Are the alien brains lateralized?

--

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Subject: Re: UFO/ET Threat Assessement

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 16:15:25 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: "Gary S. Bekkum" <gbekkum@mediaone.net>

Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.skeptic

Yes, this is good for Star Fleet Academy. Kaku did a good = job, he=20 left out James

Corum's "anholonomic field" which may well have a big = technological=20 impact perhaps

even on Type Four below where I would add:

"Type FOUR' - "super natural" - able to consciously and = willfully=20 deform and

manipulate the material space-time geometrodynamics and the = mental=20 "quantum wave

function" at will."

This is the "Star Maker" level of Q in Star Trek.

"Gary S. Bekkum" wrote:

> I would like to make a suggestion that I believe will = help=20 clarify

> communications in future discussions of this = nature.

>

> I suggest that any analysis of an "alien threat" = should=20 involve careful

> thought as to what level of technology/alien = civilization is=20 under

> discussion. In order to avoid endless debates over = minor=20 details, such

> identification should conform to now popularized = Nikolai=20 Kardashev

> "Type" most recently promoted by Michio Kaku in print = and=20 electronic

> media. No doubt if a "type two" alien civilization is = nearby,=20 there is a

> "type three" waiting in the shadows.

>

> Generally speaking the categories are as follows:

>

> Type ZERO - where we are presently

>

> Type ONE - Planetary Civilization - control the energy = resources of an

> entire planet. Able to control weather, prevent = earthquakes,=20 mine deep

> into the planet's crust, harvest the oceans, explore = all of=20 the local

> solar system, self-engineering via genetic = manipulation,=20 etc.

>

> Type TWO - Stellar Civilization - able to control the = power of=20 a star -

> energy needs so great that the power of a star is = required to=20 drive its

> technology - able to travel to nearby stellar systems = and=20 begin

> colonization - "Star Trek" level technology

>

> Type THREE - Galatic Civilization - able to harness = the power=20 of "black

> holes" at the center of galaxies - harnesses the power = of=20 billions of

> star systems - able to manipulate space time at will = -

>

> Kaku has suggested a Type Four as well...

>

> Type FOUR - "super natural" - able to deform and = manipulate=20 the "quantum

> wave function" at will

>

> Perhaps Jack could suggest further refinements to = these=20 categories?

>

> Gary

>

>

> "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" wrote:

> >

> > Memorandum for the record.

> >

> > This sums up the UFO Reality nicely and its high = priority=20 relationship to

> > planetary defence issues. I agree with the = "threat=20 assessment" below.

> >

> > For relevant background reading I suggest Erik = Davis's=20 "Techgnosis".

> >

> > yokatta@oxy.edu wrote:

> >

> > > Hi Guys,

> > >

> > > Some general comments on this thread:

> > >

> > > Yes, I strongly suspect that, as Jack put = it, "THEY=20 ARE HERE and have been

> > > for quite a while." My hunch is that they've = been=20 part of our

> > > "environment" for at least ten millennia, if = not=20 slightly longer--that is,

> > > since the end of the last ice age. Indeed, I = suspect=20 that their initial

> > > probes arrived here as the ice caps were = receding,=20 and they quickly

> > > realized--perhaps from a parallel episode in = their=20 own prehistory--that

> > > this would bring about some profound = evolutionary=20 changes in the then

> > > extremely simple technology of the dominant = species,=20 that is, us. And so

> > > the observations/experiments, etc., began. I = don't=20 think all this was

> > > done from a distance, as someone suggested. = On the=20 contrary, I think it's

> > > always been up close and personal, even more = so=20 before we finally began to

> > > evolve a complex technology a couple of = hundred=20 years ago. As I've

> > > mentioned before, I suspect that for = millennia they=20 maintained close-in

> > > bases near most major human population = centers; in=20 pre-modern Europe,

> > > these came to be known as "fairylands." = People,=20 especially children, seem

> > > to have been abducted and conditioned at = these bases=20 by highly

> > > sophisticated mind-control techniques that = we're=20 only beginning to

> > > discover independently (maybe with a little = nudge=20 from some of our more

> > > sympathetic "friends"?).

> > >

> > > The genetic experiments and hybridization = program=20 clearly began early on,

> > > but in recent years (i.e., the last century = or so)=20 it seems to have taken

> > > on an urgency not detectable in pre-modern = accounts=20 of what were almost

> > > certainly human-alien encounters. Indeed, = this is=20 why my friend David

> > > Jacobs thinks the whole business began about = a=20 century ago; I think he's

> > > overlooking the vast amount of ancient = folkloric and=20 mythological evidence

> > > for the alien presence, although I think = he's right=20 in suggesting that,

> > > for reasons that are still obscure, the=20 hybridization program went into

> > > high gear about a century ago. Understanding = these=20 reasons should, IMHO,

> > > be a high priority among UFOlogigsts, as = they may=20 well have a bearing on

> > > how large Jack's "window of opportunity" = is.

> > >

> > > Anyway, I also agree with the observation = that you=20 can't trace all human

> > > religion back to the ET presence. Yes, = there's=20 something about the human

> > > brain--maybe its bicameral structure--that = demands=20 closure: if the right

> > > hemisphere can't come up with a logical, = linear=20 explanation for some

> > > phenomenon or event--like the Sun, the Moon, = death,=20 illness, earthquakes,

> > > hurricanes, etc.--the right hemisphere will = posit a=20 metaphor that takes

> > > care of the situation, one with which the = left=20 hemisphere can engage. I

> > > suspect this sort of thing has been going on = ever=20 since we began to

> > > lateralize ca. 2.5M years ago in NE Africa, = that is,=20 the point where

> > > technology--as opposed to simple tool=20 use--began.

> > >

> > > But the alien presence has almost certainly = affected=20 the SHAPE of human

> > > religious beliefs everywhere since the end = of the=20 Upper Palaeolithic--and

> > > that includes the rebel aliens who gave rise = to the=20 myths of Prometheus,

> > > Quetzalcoatl, et al., as well as the = worldwide=20 accounts of the "little

> > > people" and other trickster figures (e.g., = "Coyote"=20 among Native Americans

> > > in the western half of North America). = Indeed, I=20 think the critical study

> > > of world mythology and folklore from this=20 perspective, coupled with

> > > carefully deconstructed abductee accounts, = can=20 yielded a vast amount of

> > > information--nay, "intelligence"--about the = ETs that=20 might prove extremely

> > > useful in any future confrontation with the = little=20 buggers and their

> > > genetically engineered hybrids. For example, = the=20 ubiquitous important of

> > > the Pleiades in these ancient & = ethnographic=20 texts leads me to believe

> > > that at least some of them hail from that = region of=20 the Galaxy.

> > >

> > > Also, someone mentioned the "Priory of Sion" = [or=20 Zion] as having ancient

> > > alien connections. For a interesting = discussion of=20 the history of this

> > > curious institution, although not from a = UFOlogical=20 standpoint, see

> > > Michael Baignet, Richard Leigh, and Henry = Moore,=20 HOLY BLOOD, HOLY GRAIL

> > > (1982), which traces the Priory back to the = late=20 12th century, when it

> > > spun off from the Knights Templars. = According to=20 Baignet, et al., the

> > > "Masters" of Sion have included Leonardo da = Vinci,=20 Isaac Newton, Claude

> > > Debussey, and Jean Cocteau. Whether or not = all these=20 famous folks were in

> > > fact involved with the Priory, the = institution=20 itself has all the earmarks

> > > of an alien-dominated cult, one that was = perhaps=20 founded when they

> > > realized they couldn't maintain tight = control over=20 the Templars, in whose

> > > creation in 1118 they probably also had a=20 surreptitous hand. The Priory

> > > appears to be yet another example of the = plethora of=20 quasi-religious

> > > "buffer" groups established by the aliens to = facilitate their programs (at

> > > the risk of ruffling some feathers, I would = put=20 Mormonism, Scientology,

> > > and Greer's CSETI in this category as = well).

> > >

> > > Finally, I agree that they probably don't = intend to=20 obliterate us in the

> > > near future. Indeed, as Jack says, "There is = obviously some reason why we

> > > have not been annihilated or taken over = other than=20 their good intentions

> > > and sensitive compassion for our feelings - = as the=20 abductions show." But,

> > > if Jacobs' reading of the situation is = correct, we=20 may be in for a shock

> > > as the "late-stage" hybrids become the = dominant=20 humanoid population on

> > > this planet, those genetically-unmodified = humans who=20 are not quietly

> > > eliminated are relegated to "reservations," = where=20 they'll be expected to

> > > die off after performing "useful" work for = the=20 aliens and their hybrid

> > > surrogates. To be sure, this assessment of = the shape=20 of things to come is

> > > perhaps overly pessimistic, but I for one = still=20 resent being at best

> > > patronized by these creatures (and their = hybrids),=20 and at worst treated as

> > > one of their lab rats. In short, I suggest = that the=20 more we can glean

> > > about them from the perceptions embedded in=20 mythology and folklore, as

> > > well as in contemporary abductee accounts, = the=20 better off we'll be if and

> > > when the time comes to engage in = face-to-face=20 negotiations and/or some

> > > serious alien (and hybrid) butt-kicking.

> > >

> > > Cheers,

> > > Scott

> > >

> > > C. SCOTT LITTLETON "Any sufficiently = evolved

> > > Professor of Anthropology technology is=20 indistinguishable

> > > Occidental College from magic."

> > > Los Angeles, CA 90041 --Arthur C. Clarke

> > > TEL (323) 259-2759

> > > FAX (323) 341-4969 "I think we're = property...."

> > > http://www.oxy.edu/~yokatta/home.htm = --Charles=20 Fort

> > >

> > > P.S. Question: Are the alien brains = lateralized?

> >

> > --

> > CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

> > http://stardrive.org

>

> --

> "The only justification for our concepts and system of = concepts is that

> they serve to represent the complex of our = experiences; beyond=20 this they

> have no legitimacy."

> Albert Einstein - "The Meaning of Relativity"

>

> "No formal 'talent', 'wunderkind abilities', personal=20 ambitions and

> relations, technical power, or material prosperity can = replace=20 the power

> of creation coming only from the open, free = interaction with=20 the Truth."

> Andrei Kirilyuk - "Universal Concept of = Complexity"

>

> "Through this 'Key' Divine Intention can be connected = to our=20 world, and

> to other may be worlds. Some of those worlds can be = the worlds=20 of our

> dreams. "The 'Key to the Universe' is the archetype of = evolution that

> now we know and can use consciously."

> George Ryazanov - "Key to Absolute Flight"

>

> "That's the effect of living backwards," the Queen = said=20 kindly: "it

> always makes one a little giddy at first...but there's = one=20 great

> advantage in it, that one's memory works both = ways."

> Lewis Carroll - "Through the Looking Glass"

--

CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

http://stardrive.org

Subject: Re: Contra Stapp on Gisin/Ontological = Principle

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 19:15:43 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: Stanley Klein <klein@spectacle.berkeley.edu>

Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.skeptic

PS

"Dr. Jack Sarfatti" wrote:

>

> ... the role of T and T' for the time uncertainty in = these

> quasi-simultaneous events. Lower the detector = bandwidth for=20 example and

> you increase T and T' lowering the minimal speed = required in=20 the common

> rest frame of the detectors.

>

> T (and T') proportional to the ratio

>

> (Temporal Coherence Time of Light Signal)/(Detector=20 Bandwidth)

Is it fo(Temporal Coherence Time of Light Signal)/(Detector = Bandwidth)

fo peak frequency of a resonant response of detector D?

fo/Detector Bandwidth is analogous to the Q of a cavity, a = kind of=20 figure

of merit.

i.e. T =3D Q(Detector) (Coherence time of light = signal)?

Any experimentalists out there know this stuff? Please = correct.=20 Thanks.

>

>

> for quasi-simultaneous events in a given foliation = into=20 spacelike

> surfaces.

>

> --

> CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

> http://stardrive.org

>

--

CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

http://stardrive.org

 

Subject: Re: UFO/ET Threat Assessement

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 19:35:51 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: yokatta@oxy.edu

Newsgroups: = sci.physics,sci.skeptic,sci.physics,sci.skeptic

PS I need to qualify my support of this. Our objective is = tolerance=20 with ET. The

parallel with racism is obvious and we must be leary of = falling=20 into an

unconscious racism with regard to ETs and ET-human = "hybrids". Many=20 of us are

hybirds already. Modern man is probably a hybrid.

So, in accord with the Prime Directive of The Federation, = our=20 policy must always

be tolerance toward alien ET species when we encounter = them. Of=20 course, if they

are hostile and abduct people we must be prepared for = defence as we=20 would be for

any pirates or terrorists human or nonhuman or partly human = who=20 abuse innocent

noncombatants.

Note article by a professor of law at UCLA.

start of quote Sharon Dolovich I think is the author?

"Dear list members.

In my recent personal correspondence with journalist

Leslie Kean (she recently published articles about = COMETA

French UFO report in BOSTON GLOBE and Irish = INDEPENDENT)

I have found out that she also released her third

article in French magazine VSD (the one that first = released

COMETA report in the first place back in July 1999).

The article that I am sending you is a translated = non-edited

version. Leslie says that she is not happy that VSD has

cuted a much from this version that I am sending you, = but

I think that people will be interested to see how it = all

looks in the working version. Unfortunately we don't = have

published version on english language. Anyway here it = is

and I am sending this with Leslie's permission.

Note that on this third article the gravity centre is = more

on the detail movings inside US pressures for = Congressional

UFO hearings from the 1997 (Greer, Rockfeller and = Clinton

involved).

VSD is a weekly magazine. But since, as Leslie says, it

was a special issue on UFOs, it didn't have the date of

a particular week on it. It was just dated June.

Leslie continues: "The VSD piece was not very well = edited,

and they cut almost half of what I submitted...so I'm = not

thrilled with it, but the information is important."

Best regards

PS: Dear researchers.

Sorry, just a small correction about message

"Leslie Kean's 3rd COMETA article in VSD". I have just

found out that the piece that I sent was a piece

originaly released in VSD (as they edited it). The

article that you will find in the following text below

is a wider version that was not released in VSD. Wider = version

has many more interesting data then the published one for = the

public. Here it is:

=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<= /P>

By Leslie Kean (draft non-released version for VSD):

COMETA spokesperson Michel Algrin says that the report

was delivered to French president Jacques Chirac and

Prime Minister Lionel Jospin. "No response is awaited,

only action," he says. "The COMETA made no request to = the

US government. It is not entitled to do so," says = Algrin,

an attorney and political scientist. "But, in its = report,

it recommended to the French government to seek for a

cooperation [sic] with its American ally on the subject

of UFOs."

Dr. Edgar Mitchell, the Apollo 14 astronaut who was the

sixth man to walk on the moon, is one of many = supporters

of such cooperation. "It's significant that individuals

of some standing in the government, military and

intelligence community in France came forth with this,"

he said in a recent interview from his home in Florida.

Mitchell, who holds a doctor of science degree from = MIT,

is convinced "at a confidence level above 90%, that = there

is reality to all of this."

He joins five-star Admiral Lord Hill-Norton, the former

head of the British Ministry of Defense and Major = Gordon

L. Cooper, one of America's original seven Mercury

astronauts, in calling for Congressional fact-finding

hearings into the UFO question. "People have been = digging

through the files and investigating for years now. The

files are quite convincing. The only thing that's = lacking

is the official stamp," Mitchell says.

Despite the fact that Mitchell is a national hero and = has

been honored with the Presidential Medal of Freedom, = the

USN Distinguished Service Medal and the NASA

Distinguished Service Medal, his request for an

investigation has been ignored by U.S. officials.

As the COMETA report points out, the U.S. is unique in

its silence on this issue. UFOs and Defense notes that

many UFO files are classified above top secret, and

accuses the U.S. of following a policy of = disinformation.

It says that the government has an "impressive = repressive

arsenal" in place, which includes military regulations

prohibiting public disclosure of UFO sightings.

Air Force Regulation 200-2, ``Unidentified Flying = Objects

Reporting,'' for example, prohibits the release to the

public and the media of any data about ``those objects

which are not explainable.'' An even more restrictive

procedure is outlined in the Joint Army Navy Air Force

Publication 146, which threatens to prosecute anyone

under its jurisdiction - including pilots, civilian

agencies, merchant marine captains, and even some = fishing

vessels - for disclosing reports of sightings relevant = to

US security.

Although some documentation has been released through = the

Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), researchers have had

an increasingly difficult time accessing information

about a subject that the U.S. government claims does = not

exist. A 1980 federal suit is a case in point. The case

was filed in the US District Court of the District of

Columbia against the National Security Agency (NSA) for

156 UFO documents the agency refused to release. The = NSA

provided U.S. District Court Judge Gerhard A.Gesell = with

a 21-page, Above Top Secret affidavit justifying the

withholding. No one else was permitted to see the

affidavit. The judge dismissed the lawsuit stating that

"public interest in disclosure is far outweighed by the

sensitive nature of the materials and the obvious = effect

on national security their release may entail."

MILITARY CLOSE ENCOUNTERS

A few months after the French release of the COMETA

report, U.S. Naval Reserve Commander Willard H. Miller

agreed to go on the record about his participation in a

series of previously undisclosed briefings for Pentagon

brass about national security and military policy

regarding UFOs. Miller has been a key liaison to the

Pentagon on the subject for years. "It's time to give

some credibility to the fact that there are those in = high

places in the government who have an interest in this

subject," he says, taking a considerable risk by coming

forward.

Miller retired in 1994 from active duty on the Current

Operations Staff (J3) of U.S. Atlantic Command, = Norfolk,

Virginia where he worked operations, intelligence, and

special contingency issues. With over 30 years of

experience in Navy and Joint Interagency operations = with

the Department of Defense, Commander Miller has held a

Top Secret clearance with access to sensitive

compartmented information.

It has not been easy for Miller to overcome the taboo

that the UFO subject carries among his colleagues in = the

military. "It is treated much the way we used to view

mental illness. Hide the crazy daughter in the attic," = he

says.

In a February, 2000 confidential memo titled "Selected

Discussions with Key United States (US) Department of

Defense (DoD) Intelligence Personnel on the Subject of

Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs) and Extraterrestrial

Intelligence (ETI)" prepared for this reporter, Miller

spelled out the details of meetings between 1989 and = 2000

with named high level Department of Defense = intelligence

personnel - including the Director of the Defense

Intelligence Agency (DIA), an Admiral on the Joint = Staff,

and the U.S. Atlantic Command Director for Intelligence = -

among others. Miller says he initiated briefings "to

provide the flag officers with information to help the

military decision-making processes when these = unexplained

craft are encountered by members of the Department of

Defense."

Concerned that many high-ranking military officers are

not properly informed about the UFO phenomenon, Miller

believes that the generals who have come forward in

France could have a significant impact. "Without

preparation and planning for encounters, precipitous

military decisions may lead to unnecessary confusion,

misapplication of forces, or possible catastrophic

consequences," he says..

The Navy Commander's concern is justified by the

historical record. Declassified government documents

show that unexplained objects with extraordinary

technical capabilities pose challenges to military

activity around the globe. U.S. fighter jets have been

scrambled to pursue UFOs, according to North American

Aerospace Defence Command (NORAD) logs and U.S. Air = Force

documents. Peruvian and Iranian Air Force planes

attempted to shoot down unexplained objects during air

encounters, and Belgium F-16's equipped with

automatically guided missiles pursued UFO's in 1990.

In earlier decades, such concerns were openly discussed

among American government officials. In 1960, for

example, Representative Leonard G. Wolf of Iowa entered

an "urgent warning" from former CIA Director Vice = Admiral

R.E. Hillenkoetter into the Congressional Record that

"certain dangers are linked with unidentified flying

objects." Wolf cited Gen. L.M. Chassin, NATO = coordinator

of Allied Air Service, warning that "if we persist in

refusing to recognize the existence of the UFOs, we = will

end up, one fine day, by mistaking them for the guided

missiles of an enemy - and the worst will be upon us."

Wolf also referenced a three-year study which = determined

that air defense scrambles and alerts had already

occurred due to the presence of UFOs. All defense

personnel "should be told that UFOs are real and should

be trained to distinguish them - by their = characteristic

speeds and maneuvers - from conventional planes and

missiles" the study said.

These concerns were taken seriously enough to be

incorporated into the 1971 "Agreement on Measures to

Reduce the Outbreak of Nuclear War" between the U.S. = and

the Soviet Union. The treaty states that the two

countries will "notify each other immediately in the

event of detection by missile warning systems of

unidentified objects...if such occurrences could create = a

risk of outbreak of nuclear war between the two

countries."

The COMETA assures its readers that UFOs have not been

the cause of any hostile acts "although intimidation

maneuvers have been confirmed." In France, they say,

there have been "visits above secret installations and

missile bases" and "military aircraft shadowed" by = UFOs.

Like Miller, they warn against impulsive, uninformed

actions. "In the face of an unknown situation, one must

be on guard against any instinctive self-defense = reaction

that could be easily interpreted as a provocation."

Reports such as the one from France may open the door = for

the U.S. and other nations to be more forthcoming. = Chile,

for example, is openly addressing it's own concerns = about

air safety and UFOs. The now retired Chief of the = Chilean

Air Force has formed a committee with military and = civil

aviation experts to study recent near collisions = between

UFOs and civilian airliners.

GOVERNMENT WITNESSES: EXTRAORDINARY AND UNAMBIGUOUS

EVENTS

While Commander Miller alerted the Pentagon, researcher

Dr. Steven M. Greer was working the issue within the

U.S.Congress and the executive branch. Greer, an

emergency physician who has assembled government

documents, visual evidence and credible witness reports

on UFOs, also attended some of the Pentagon briefings

with Miller.

In 1993, Greer was invited to meet with President

Clinton's first sitting CIA Director, Admiral James

Woolsey. The three hour event was arranged by futurist

John L. Petersen, President and founder of the = Washington

area think tank The Arlington Institute, who = "specializes

in the area of national and global security" and

currently serves as a Pentagon consultant, according to

Institute materials. Petersen's credentials include

stints at the Office of the Secretary of Defense and = the

National Security Council staff.

Petersen declined to answer questions concerning his

purpose in hosting the dinner meeting at his home in

Arlington, Virginia. However, he obviously was aware of

the high stakes involved. In a sensitive memo he sent = to

Greer just prior to the meeting, he said that the = dinner

with Woolsey would "move the whole thing to a much, = much

higher plane..." and that "the most powerful people in

the world will have a deep, compelling interest in our

activities..." At the same time, he pointed out that = the

meeting - kept secret until 1998 - would raise

"significant red flags for those who don't want to see

this succeed."

Greer says he only needed 15 minutes to present Woolsey

with the documentation he brought in a large briefcase.

Woolsey was already convinced as to the reality of = UFO's.

Most of the meeting was spent discussing "what all of

this means" and "the geopolitical implications of

disclosing this matter fully to the public," Greer says

In August 1995, philanthropist Laurance Rockefeller

provided Greer's briefing materials to President = Clinton,

Hillary Clinton, and Presidential science advisor Jack

Gibbons while they spent a weekend at Rockefellers'

Wyoming ranch. Clinton then instructed Associate = Attorney

General at the Justice Department, Webster Hubbell, to

investigate the existence of UFOs, as disclosed in his

book Friends in High Places. Despite this request from

the Commander-in-Chief, Hubbell was unable to obtain

information on the subject.

Greer has worked tirelessly in an effort to bring about

Congressionsal hearings into the UFO question. He has

earned the trust of over 100 government witnesses with

personal, first-hand knowledge of UFO phenomena and

related projects who are committed to testify under = oath.

These witnesses made their observations while in the = Air

Force, Army, Navy, NASA, private industry and

intelligence operations. According to Greer, they are

waiting only for Congressional subpoenas to protect = them

from penalties for violating national security oaths

before coming forward.

Apollo Astronaut Edgar Mitchell has talked to a number = of

these witnesses. "They have stated their first hand

experience with conviction and their stories check = out,"

he said. Coupled with the new military disclosures

acknowledging national security concerns, advocates for

Congressional hearings believe that the testimonies of

these highly credible government witnesses could force,

once and for all, a government examination of the = "extra-

terrestrial hypothesis" as has been done in France.

As a small prelude to these hearings, eleven witnesses

risked coming forward "for ethical, moral and patriotic

reasons" as Greer explained it. On April 9, 1997, Greer

and his associates held an unprecedented, confidential

congressional briefing at the Westin Hotel in = Washington.

The VIP's in attendance included Representative Dan

Burton, Chair of the House Committee on Government = Reform

and Oversight, with his chief of staff, and staffers = from

nearly thirty congressional offices. Representatives = from

the executive branch, including a staff member from = Vice

President Gore's office, were present, along with

representatives of two state governors, the Department = of

Defense, and the scientific community.

Greer told the attendees that the witnesses "have

directly handled this subject or have been present = while

it was occuring - major events, unambiguous events, not = a

light in the sky, but extroardinary events" and "are

tremendously dedicated to trying to bring this forward = to

the public."

For over one and a half hours, participants heard from = a

Pentagon cryptologist who said he viewed = extraterrestrial

space debris containing indecipherable writing, and a

NASA subcontracter who saw restricted satellite photos

showing flying discs that were routinely airbrushed out

before public release. A navy pilot and his crew

experienced electromagnetic effects in their airplane

when a 300 foot UFO flew 25 miles in two seconds = directly

in front of the plane, as confirmed by Gander radar and

official government documents.

Witnesses touched on national security concerns such as

those brought to the Pentagon by Commander Miller. = Loring

Air Force base was visited by a silent triangular ship

which hovered over B-52's on strategic alert. A senior

admiral, amid command center chaos, issued a "force = down"

order against an elliptical-shaped craft of unknown

origin, tracked by satellite, radar, and chased by

military planes. According to the witness, it literally

jumped between states in under a minute, flew out to = sea

and suddenly left the earth's atmosphere.

By all accounts, the VIP's present paid close = attention.

They had been clearly informed that these witnesses = were

only the tip of the iceberg out of a pool of more than

100. "This is a subject that can either bore you to

death or shock you to death or absolutely leave you

speechless" witness Major Steven Lovekin told them.

A veteran Congressional staffer received a standing

ovation when, unsolicited, she took the floor and

declared her determination to bring this information to

the public by organizing for hearings on capitol hill.

The next day, Miller, Lovekin, Mitchell and Greer = brought

the same information to the Joint Staff Vice Director = for

Intelligence at a private PkOtagon briefing.

PROTECTING HARD-EARNED REPUTATIONS

Two years after the Washington briefing, the COMETA

released its dramatic report which ended by stating = that

"only increasing pressure from public opinion, possibly

supported by the results of independent researchers, by

more or less calculated disclosures, or by a sudden = rise

in UFO manifestations might perhaps induce U.S. leaders

and persons of authority to change their stance."

Witness testimonies and other evidence presented in = 1997

did not seem to create movement in that direction.

"Because the Congress is afraid they won't get re-

elected, they don't even want to talk about this. I = just

think somebody should do something," says the

Congressional staffer who is working for hearings = behind

the scenes.

When Representative Burton left the Westin Hotel that

night, he requested that all information on the subject

be sent to his office. Yet a recent inquiry to Burton's

office revealed that whatever interest the Congressman

may have shown will not bear fruit until the demand for

hearings - from both the press and the public -

escalates. "We haven't heard a very loud call for

hearings on this issue yet," said press secretary John

Williams. "As far as any intention of holding hearings

regarding the existence of UFOs or anything that

pertained to that briefing, we have no intention of

holding any hearings on that right now." Williams = stated

that Burton's interest in the subject is purely = personal.

Some representatives are interested, but only behind

closed doors, says a democratic campaign manager,

requesting anonymity, who has been intimately involved = in

electoral politics for 29 years. He has met personally

with a number of members of congress on the subject.

"With our thirty second commercials' ability to destroy

hard-earned reputations, particularly using a subject

like this, people are very hesitant to take a leading

role on the subject, although they know that it's a = very

real matter," he says.

Nonetheless, one congressman did respond to public

pressure. In 1993, New Mexico representative Steven

Schiff requested that the General Accounting Office

investigate the infamous 1947 crash of a mysterious

object in the desert near Roswell, New Mexico. Two = years

later, he learned from the GAO that all documents and

radio messages during the relevant time period had been

destroyed "without proper authority." Schiff was unable

to attend the Washington briefing in 1997 and died of = an

aggressive skin cancer the following year. No other

member has picked up where he left off.

Dr. Greer, who has privately briefed both = Representative

Christopher Cox and Senator Richard Bryan of the Senate

Intelligence Committee, is asking supporters to apply

pressure.

Missouri, the "Show Me" state, has become the first to

launch a ballot initiative urging Congress to convene

hearings in which government witnesses can testify

"regarding their personal knowledge of any UFO-related

evidence." Certified by the Missouri secretary of state

in March, the initiative states that "the Federal

Government's handling of the UFO issue has contributed = to

the public cynicism toward, and general mistrust of,

government - a development injurious to our republic."

Robert Bletchman, a Connecticut attorney who conceived = of

the initiative, has no doubt it would win votes in the

November election, as long as the requisite number of

signatures are collected in time. "My expectation is = that

Missouri will kindle a firestorm of proactive interest

throughout the country in those sixteen states that = allow

for the direct initiative," he says. Hundreds of

thousands of votes would be involved. "What does = Congress

pay attention to? How real people at the ballot box

actually vote," Bletchman says. "Maybe for the first = time

the politicians would have to pay overt attention."

THE REAL NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT

On September 15, 1998, Commander Willard Miller and Dr.

Steven Greer entered the Pentagon through the VIP

entrance. After passing through metal detectors, they

were escorted past armed security guards, up the = massive

staircase and into the innermost ring of the Pentagon. = An

electrically controlled door brought them into the

comfortable outer office of the Director of the Defense

Intelligence Agency (DIA), adorned with mahogany, = walnut,

brass, and military plaques.

Thirty minutes later, the DIA Director came out of his

inner chamber, parting company with an entourage of = high-

level foreign Admirals and Generals. He graciously

ushered in his two guests, taking his place at the head

of a massive wood table. According to Miller's

confidential memo of February 2000, an Army Colonel, a

DIA staff member and a Defense Department clerk were = also

seated around the table. The briefing lasted 50 = minutes.

Greer provided the military officials with declassified

documents from the CIA, DIA, FBI, NORAD, SAC (Strategic

Air Command) and NMCC (National Military Command = Center),

referencing specific UFO events connected with military

forces and bases. At the general's request, he provided = a

"comprehensive overview" of the subject.

Commander Miller's Military Information Outline = prepared

for the briefing included a discussion of national

security implications, military risks and recommended

courses of action. Greer and Miller explained to the = DIA

Director that there is no credible evidence of = hostility

from UFO occupants. "The only threat to the national

security of the United States is the continued denial = of

undeniable physical UFO occurrences and sightings to a

public growing increasingly frustrated with its

government's weak explanations," Miller says he told = the

Pentagon officials. "Some US Air Force denials defy = logic

and strain the public's tolerance, he said.

His point was dramatically illustrated in the aftermath

of an extraordinary event that occurred one spring

evening over the state of Arizona. On March 13, 1997,

thousands observed enormous, lighted, triangular craft

flying low and silently, sometimes hovering wingless = over

populated areas. Hundreds of feet long, air traffic

controllers failed to register them on radar. To this

day, the people of Arizona do not know what penetrated = US

airspace that night.

In response to public demand, Phoenix city council = member

Frances Barwood initiated an investigation into the

Arizona triangles. "I like answers. I don't like

unfinished business. People need to push their elected

officials to find out what is invading our air space,"

she says. Barwood says she personally spoke with over

seven hundred people who saw the objects.

She was never provided any reasonable explanation.

Instead, the councilwoman was given the run-around from

her city, state and federal government - including

Arizona Senator John McCain - and was publicly = ridiculed

by the mayor of Phoenix. Yet she still considers this = "an

issue of state and national significance." Barwood has

retired from politics to write a book about this

experience. "The fact that the government never

interviewed one witness doesn't make me feel too secure

about our national security," she commented during a

recent interview.

Arizona attorney Peter Gersten responded by filing a

Freedom of Information Act lawsuit against the = Department

of Defense in 1999. The case challenged the adequacy of

the governments "reasonable search" for information = about

the triangular objects seen over Arizona in 1997, and

elsewhere in the US over the last twenty years.

As recently as January 5, 2000, four policemen at

different locations in St. Claire County, Illinois,

witnessed a brightly lit, huge triangular craft flying = at

1000 feet, according to the Los Angeles Times. Most

alarming was the report from Lebanon police officer

Thomas Barton that he witnessed the hovering object = jump

at least 8 miles in 3 seconds. Aeronautical expert Paul

Czysz, who spent 29 years at McDonnell-Douglas = designing

faster-than-sound aircraft, says that such rapid motion

cannot be explained in conventional terms. The object

would be a "fireball" and "people on board would be

mush," he says. Yet nearby Scott Air Force base and the

FAA purport to know nothing

On February 29, 2000, a reporter brought the issue of

military denial and the Arizona lawsuit to the = attention

of U.S. Senator John McCain of Arizona at a California

press conference. "I think it's of great interest,"

responded the Presidential candidate, acknowledging = that

the 1997 "lights" seen over Arizona have "never been

fully explained."

Nonetheless, the DoD continues to maintain that it can

find no information about the triangular objects. It

provided details of its search to the court as required

by U.S. District Court Stephen M. McNamee of Phoenix = for

Gersten's lawsuit. On March 30, 2000, the judge = concluded

that "a reasonable search was conducted' even though no

information was obtained, and he dismissed the case.

Like Barwood, Gersten is incredulous. "What is it that

has unlimited, unrestricted access to our airspace in

populated areas?" he says. "With so many worries about

terrorist attacks, how could they not know what these

triangles are?"

The danger of such blatant denial is what Navy = Commander

Willard Miller brought to the attention of the three = star

general from the Defense Intelligence Agency that day = in

1998. Miller told him that the continued denial of

information "causes the public to begin to loose

additional faith in the military and the government.

That's not good for the country. That type of non-

response threatens the stability, trust and fabric of = an

open democratic society," he said.

Miller and Greer left the DIA director with a multi-

volume package of briefing materials and video

documentation which had been prepared for the = Washington

briefing in 1997.

Once again, the French Generals make the same point

raised by their American counterparts. "How can one try

to ignore a phenomena that is manifested by the regular

crossing of our air space by moving objects...If we do

nothing, the very principle of defense and air

intelligence would be called into question," they = state.

According to Miller, all of the high-ranking military

officers at the briefings showed "a great amount of

inquisitiveness." There was little laughter. "The

briefings were accorded the same serious attention = given

to other briefings on national security matters," says

Miller. He has yet to assess, however, whether he

achieved the desired effect of transforming military

policy towards UFO encounters and response to public

inquiries.

"WHAT SHOULD WE PREPARE FOR?" ASK AMERICAN FIRE

FIGHTERS

UFOs and Defense: What Should We Prepare For? = recommends

that the French government reflect on "the measures to

take in the event of a spectacular=FEand indisputable

manifestation of a UFO." Surprisingly, the United = States

has taken one small step in that direction. The second

edition of the Fire Officer's Guide to Disaster Control

is currently used for training by the Federal Emergency

Management Agency (FEMA) at its National Fire Academy = and

is taught nationally through the seven universities

offering degrees in fire science. Chapter 13 of the = guide

is titled "Enemy Attack and UFO Potential." It warns

fire fighters of known "UFO hazards" such as electrical

fields that cause blackouts, air and ground travel

disruptions by force fields, and physiological effects.

"Do not stand under a UFO that is hovering at low

altitudes. Do not touch or attempt to touch a UFO that

has landed," the book warns.

Researched primarily by now deceased US Naval Reserve

Captain Charles Bahme, a Los Angeles deputy fire chief

who also worked for the Department of Defense and the

U.S. State Department, the chapter describes the role

that fire fighters should play "in the event of the

unexpected arrival of UFOs in their communities." As an

example, it outlines a scenario of a UFO crashing into

the boiler room of a school, where the spilled oil

ignites, endangering the lives of those inside the = craft.

The fire officials are instructed to let the military

take over.

Dr. William M. Kramer, professor of Fire Science at the

University of Cincinnati and an Ohio Fire Chief, co-

authored the chapter and will be updating it this year.

Kramer says that "the vast majority of fire fighters

believe very definitely that UFOs are genuinely

unidentifiable craft and are not natural phenomena = native

to our known earth and our known existence." Like most

people, they are reluctant to admit this publicly.

The French Institute of Higher Studies for National

Defense and the National Center for Space Studies are a

few steps ahead of the United States military and NASA.

Not only do they openly present information = acknowledging

the existence of UFOs and attempt to explain their

origin, they also recommend a widespread information = and

training campaign on preparedness which would reach all

sectors of the relevant political, military, and = civilian

spectrum in their country. Perhaps the report by the

bold French generals - with its goal of "stripping the

phenomenon of UFOs of its irrational layer" - will be a

catalyst for American authorities to examine the issue = of

UFO's in a new light."

end of quote

"Dr. Jack Sarfatti" wrote:

> Memorandum for the record.

>

> This sums up the UFO Reality nicely and its high = priority=20 relationship to

> planetary defence issues. I agree with the "threat = assessment"=20 below.

>

> For relevant background reading I suggest Erik Davis's = "Techgnosis".

>

> yokatta@oxy.edu wrote:

>

> > Hi Guys,

> >

> > Some general comments on this thread:

> >

> > Yes, I strongly suspect that, as Jack put it, = "THEY ARE=20 HERE and have been

> > for quite a while." My hunch is that they've been = part of=20 our

> > "environment" for at least ten millennia, if not = slightly=20 longer--that is,

> > since the end of the last ice age. Indeed, I = suspect that=20 their initial

> > probes arrived here as the ice caps were = receding, and=20 they quickly

> > realized--perhaps from a parallel episode in = their own=20 prehistory--that

> > this would bring about some profound evolutionary = changes=20 in the then

> > extremely simple technology of the dominant = species, that=20 is, us. And so

> > the observations/experiments, etc., began. I = don't think=20 all this was

> > done from a distance, as someone suggested. On = the=20 contrary, I think it's

> > always been up close and personal, even more so = before we=20 finally began to

> > evolve a complex technology a couple of hundred = years=20 ago. As I've

> > mentioned before, I suspect that for millennia = they=20 maintained close-in

> > bases near most major human population centers; = in=20 pre-modern Europe,

> > these came to be known as "fairylands." People,=20 especially children, seem

> > to have been abducted and conditioned at these = bases by=20 highly

> > sophisticated mind-control techniques that we're = only=20 beginning to

> > discover independently (maybe with a little nudge = from=20 some of our more

> > sympathetic "friends"?).

> >

> > The genetic experiments and hybridization program = clearly=20 began early on,

> > but in recent years (i.e., the last century or = so) it=20 seems to have taken

> > on an urgency not detectable in pre-modern = accounts of=20 what were almost

> > certainly human-alien encounters. Indeed, this is = why my=20 friend David

> > Jacobs thinks the whole business began about a = century=20 ago; I think he's

> > overlooking the vast amount of ancient folkloric = and=20 mythological evidence

> > for the alien presence, although I think he's = right in=20 suggesting that,

> > for reasons that are still obscure, the = hybridization=20 program went into

> > high gear about a century ago. Understanding = these=20 reasons should, IMHO,

> > be a high priority among UFOlogigsts, as they may = well=20 have a bearing on

> > how large Jack's "window of opportunity" is.

> >

> > Anyway, I also agree with the observation that = you can't=20 trace all human

> > religion back to the ET presence. Yes, there's = something=20 about the human

> > brain--maybe its bicameral structure--that = demands=20 closure: if the right

> > hemisphere can't come up with a logical, linear=20 explanation for some

> > phenomenon or event--like the Sun, the Moon, = death,=20 illness, earthquakes,

> > hurricanes, etc.--the right hemisphere will posit = a=20 metaphor that takes

> > care of the situation, one with which the left = hemisphere=20 can engage. I

> > suspect this sort of thing has been going on ever = since=20 we began to

> > lateralize ca. 2.5M years ago in NE Africa, that = is, the=20 point where

> > technology--as opposed to simple tool = use--began.

> >

> > But the alien presence has almost certainly = affected the=20 SHAPE of human

> > religious beliefs everywhere since the end of the = Upper=20 Palaeolithic--and

> > that includes the rebel aliens who gave rise to = the myths=20 of Prometheus,

> > Quetzalcoatl, et al., as well as the worldwide = accounts=20 of the "little

> > people" and other trickster figures (e.g., = "Coyote" among=20 Native Americans

> > in the western half of North America). Indeed, I = think=20 the critical study

> > of world mythology and folklore from this = perspective,=20 coupled with

> > carefully deconstructed abductee accounts, can = yielded a=20 vast amount of

> > information--nay, "intelligence"--about the ETs = that=20 might prove extremely

> > useful in any future confrontation with the = little=20 buggers and their

> > genetically engineered hybrids. For example, the=20 ubiquitous important of

> > the Pleiades in these ancient & ethnographic = texts=20 leads me to believe

> > that at least some of them hail from that region = of the=20 Galaxy.

> >

> > Also, someone mentioned the "Priory of Sion" [or = Zion] as=20 having ancient

> > alien connections. For a interesting discussion = of the=20 history of this

> > curious institution, although not from a = UFOlogical=20 standpoint, see

> > Michael Baignet, Richard Leigh, and Henry Moore, = HOLY=20 BLOOD, HOLY GRAIL

> > (1982), which traces the Priory back to the late = 12th=20 century, when it

> > spun off from the Knights Templars. According to = Baignet,=20 et al., the

> > "Masters" of Sion have included Leonardo da = Vinci, Isaac=20 Newton, Claude

> > Debussey, and Jean Cocteau. Whether or not all = these=20 famous folks were in

> > fact involved with the Priory, the institution = itself has=20 all the earmarks

> > of an alien-dominated cult, one that was perhaps = founded=20 when they

> > realized they couldn't maintain tight control = over the=20 Templars, in whose

> > creation in 1118 they probably also had a = surreptitous=20 hand. The Priory

> > appears to be yet another example of the plethora = of=20 quasi-religious

> > "buffer" groups established by the aliens to = facilitate=20 their programs (at

> > the risk of ruffling some feathers, I would put=20 Mormonism, Scientology,

> > and Greer's CSETI in this category as well).

> >

> > Finally, I agree that they probably don't intend = to=20 obliterate us in the

> > near future. Indeed, as Jack says, "There is = obviously=20 some reason why we

> > have not been annihilated or taken over other = than their=20 good intentions

> > and sensitive compassion for our feelings - as = the=20 abductions show." But,

> > if Jacobs' reading of the situation is correct, = we may be=20 in for a shock

> > as the "late-stage" hybrids become the dominant = humanoid=20 population on

> > this planet, those genetically-unmodified humans = who are=20 not quietly

> > eliminated are relegated to "reservations," where = they'll=20 be expected to

> > die off after performing "useful" work for the = aliens and=20 their hybrid

> > surrogates. To be sure, this assessment of the = shape of=20 things to come is

> > perhaps overly pessimistic, but I for one still = resent=20 being at best

> > patronized by these creatures (and their = hybrids), and at=20 worst treated as

> > one of their lab rats. In short, I suggest that = the more=20 we can glean

> > about them from the perceptions embedded in = mythology and=20 folklore, as

> > well as in contemporary abductee accounts, the = better off=20 we'll be if and

> > when the time comes to engage in face-to-face=20 negotiations and/or some

> > serious alien (and hybrid) butt-kicking.

> >

> > Cheers,

> > Scott

> >

> > C. SCOTT LITTLETON "Any sufficiently evolved

> > Professor of Anthropology technology is=20 indistinguishable

> > Occidental College from magic."

> > Los Angeles, CA 90041 --Arthur C. Clarke

> > TEL (323) 259-2759

> > FAX (323) 341-4969 "I think we're = property...."

> > http://www.oxy.edu/~yokatta/home.htm --Charles = Fort

> >

> > P.S. Question: Are the alien brains = lateralized?

>

> --

> CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

> http://stardrive.org

--

CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

http://stardrive.org

Subject: Re: Nintendo vs Erector & the American Way

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 21:08:06 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: Dan Smith <dansmith@clark.net>

CC: CloudRider@aol.com, Jeffrey Mishlove=20 <jeffrey.mishlove@intuition.org>

Dan Smith wrote:

> Dick & Jack,

>

> Dick, you are herein engaging in the most blatant = McCarthyism=20 that might be

> humanly(?) conceived.

You have a point Dan.

>

>

> I see nowhere that you rise even slightly above that = most=20 shameful of all

> demagogueries.

>

> You might be dangerous except for the fact that you = allow your=20 overweaned

> suspicions and cynicisms to entirely remove you from = the body=20 politic and

> leave you squealing on the margins.

Yes, that's a fair assessment.

>

>

> If you were one tenth the champion of democracy that = you=20 purport to be, you

> would not be wasting your time preaching to all of us=20 'subversive, pinko

> aliens in disguise'. You would instead be running for = the=20 presidency of

> your PTA. But in your heart you know that your 'fallow = amuricans' would

> vote in an Appalachian minute to have your ass = committed.=20 Bless their

> better judgement of the real reality. By your own = lights,=20 Dick, you should

> go down in history as the failed attempt of an alien = implanted=20 chaos meme.

> We wish them better luck with the next implant!

Wow Dan! You should get mad more often. Inspired! :-) At = least=20 Farley, or shall

we call him Un-Farley, awoke you out of your dogmatic = slumbers.

>

>

> Instead of dabbling in Gray-baiting politics, there is = one=20 actual service

> that the UFO intellectuals might reasonably perform. = That is=20 simply to

> ascertain the unadulterated truth of our situation vis = a vis=20 the Cosmos.

Here! Here! I'll second that.

>

>

> In this regard there is just one very clear choice = that has=20 been presented

> to you. This is the Nintendo vs. Erector or Smith vs. = Sarfatti=20 choice.

>

> Jack's position is actually rather close to Dick's in = several=20 ways, even

> including much of the demagoguery.

Whoops, there you go again, distorting my real arguments. I = just=20 got finished

writing

PS I need to qualify my support of this. Our objective is = tolerance=20 with ET. The

parallel with racism is obvious and we must be leary of = falling=20 into an

unconscious racism with regard to ETs and ET-human = "hybrids". Many=20 of us are

hybrids already. Modern man is probably a hybrid.

So, in accord with the Prime Directive of The Federation, = our=20 policy must always

be tolerance toward alien ET species when we encounter = them. Of=20 course, if they

are hostile and abduct people we must be prepared for = defence as we=20 would be for

any pirates or terrorists human or nonhuman or partly human = who=20 abuse innocent

noncombatants.

before reading Dan's obviously unjust remark about my = position vis=20 a vis Dick's.

> The most striking similarity is the

> extreme metaphysical naivete that they share. They = both opt=20 for the most

> simplisitic and conventional explanation of the ET=20 presence::::

>

> We have met the future and it is almost exactly like = US!! What=20 a

> stupendous, paradigm shattering revelation!!!

>

> The human species has been around for less than = 100,000 years=20 we are told.

> Yet, as we peer into the cosmic mists where biological = evolution would have

> had billions of years of a head start over us, what do = we see?=20 We see our

> moral and spiritual inferiors employing a technology = which is=20 barely 100

> years ahead of ours, and to which Jack proposes that = will be=20 able to wield

> within say 5 or 10 years at the most.

Yes, if we have enough straw to make the bricks, I = guarantee it. We=20 cannot

succeed with scraps from the table. We need the whole pie = to get=20 the job done in

that time. Hey, Mom, I ate the whole thing and shrunk the=20 multi-verse.

>

>

> If nothing else, we have learned that our = understanding of the=20 cosmos and

> our moral sensibility are going to progress less in = the next=20 1,000,000,000

> years than they have in the last 100 years. Jack 'n = Dick are=20 therefore the

> first two humans to have seen the Final Cosmic = Truth.

Your mind is going sloppy again Dan, for a brief moment you = were=20 brilliant. You

lack intellectual stamina. To associate me with Dick is = really=20 foolish. My

politics are totally opposite to his. I love Laurance = Rockefeller!=20 He is a good

man.

> Jack has the physical

> formulas and Dick has the political formulas for it, = right in=20 their back

> pocket. And if you don't like the looks of this TRUTH = then too=20 bad, because

> that is just the way it is going to be around here for = the=20 next, oh, say

> 1,000,000,000 years. That's pronounced = 'Bububilllion'!!

>

> I can seriously think of no better reason for all of = us to=20 blow our brains

> out than the prospect that we as a species have = nothing=20 substantially new or

> improved to look forward to for the next 1,000,000,000 = years.

Time for your anti-depressant.

>

>

> If this is not the most = BBBOOOOOOOORRRRRIIIIIIIIIINNNNNGGGG=20 cosmology that

> one could possibly imagine then please spare me!!!

>

> Both of these fine cosmologists have just one slight = failing.=20 This is a

> total and utter lack of ability to think more than one = nanometer outside of

> their formulaic little boxes.

How about a millimeter across hyperspace to the universe = next=20 door?

>

>

> It is a very sad and sorry fact that neither of these = two=20 esteemed cosmic

> intellects, amongst all of their investigations, = studies and=20 travails, never

> happenend to stumble across a Nintendo(c) set. = Unfortunately=20 in all of

> their formative years, they were never exposed to a = technology=20 more advanced

> than the Erector(c) set.

Yeah, we're the Viagra generation. :-)

>

>

> If those poor ETs came here to accomplish anything at = all it=20 would have to

> be to provoke us to think OUTSIDE THE BOX. Jack 'n = Dick=20 stuggle mightily to

> force these poor little critters right into those = ticky-tacky,=20 formulaic

> little boxes where they fervently hope that we will = all have=20 to spend the

> next 'Bububilllion' years.

>

> Yes, it is certainly a cosmic shame that Jack 'n Dick = are too=20 intellectually

> impoverished to be able to afford just one simple = little=20 Nintendo machine

> between them.

>

> Imagine the vistas that might have been opened to = them!! Minds=20 and spirits

> are a terrible thing to waste!

>

> All the Rockefellers, Bigelows and Adamses could not = in all=20 their most

> sinister, conspiratorial machninations have possibly = conceived=20 of a more

> effective way to chain the human mind and spirit to = the dead=20 weight of

> Conventionalism, than what Jack 'n Dick have come up = with just=20 on their own

> recognizance.

Again for the record, for Dan Smith to associate me with = Dick=20 Farley here is a

complete lie like when he tried to cause trouble between = Hal=20 Puthoff and Ron

Pandolfi. For the record, I support Rockefeller, Bigelow, = Scott=20 Jones and Prince

Hans Adam in their UFO activities. As far as I am concerned = they=20 are among the

Good Guys and let there be no doubt about where Jack = Sarfatti=20 stands on this in

relation to Dick Farley. Dan is working for some group = whose=20 objective is to

spread lies about all this and confuse the issues.

>

>

> But then they must think that Nintendo is an = Alien/Commie=20 technology that

> was implanted here to subvert the good old American = Values=20 that are

> epitomized in the Bohmian/Erector set technology and=20 philosophy.

>

> Dan

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: CloudRider@aol.com = <CloudRider@aol.com>

> Date: Saturday, September 23, 2000 1:05 PM

> Subject: Re: We Are Already There!!!!! (Farley in = reply to Dan=20 S.)

>

> >

> >[Farley]

> >

> >The good professor (Littleton) may have a point, = but to=20 many of us who've

> >been following this "space war" for thirty-plus = years, and=20 have tracked its

> >history back a lot farther, the proverbial cat has = already=20 gotten out of

> >Pandora's box and eaten the horses as they escaped = from=20 the barn, (no

> matter

> >WHO left the door open, be it Jack Parsons, L. Ron = Hubbard=20 or Larry

> >Rockefeller and his acolytes). We're at war.

> >

> >Now, it may be that the "aliens" are a construct = of=20 "applied Theosophy,"

> >dating from the salon societies of the late 19th = and=20 earlier 20th

> centuries,

> >of the sort Laurance Rockefeller's mom, Abby = Aldrich, and=20 her coterie of

> New

> >York white-gloved ladies dabbled in, and which so = deeply=20 influenced "social

> >policy" and "eugenics" earlier in this century, = leading to=20 some rather

> >"embarrassing" miscues in human engineering.

> >

> >But before we "lock and load" our space-based = lasers,=20 aiming them at

> whatever

> >of the "E.T. aliens" we don't like (engaging in = more=20 "species-ism" and

> >inter-galactic racism, killing the bizarre-o = aliens who=20 "don't look like

> >us"), perhaps we'd better do a check of the = "humanoids=20 among us" who

> already

> >have anti-human views about us and our "poor = planet," with=20 its supposed

> >overpopulation (of "the wrong people," don't you = know) and=20 "dwindling

> >resources," (i.e., not enough oil for yuppified = SUVs and a=20 plethora of

> inbred

> >soccer moms and their fat-bellied, pasty faced = whining=20 offspring).

> >

> >Dr. John Mack, the eco-shrink parasitizing = Harvard; MUFONy=20 "psychologist"

> >John Carpenter; Temple University's "alien-phobe"=20 historian Dr. David

> Jacobs;

> >New York artist-cum-hypno-debriefer of ET/alien=20 "abductees" Budd Hopkins;

> Dr.

> >Courtenay Brown, the "remote viewing" E.T. (MARS=20 ATTACK!!!!) Paul Revere;

> >former T.M. doc and "Ambassador" to the Visiting = Others=20 Stephen Greer;

> >software cover-operator of the E.T. "Truth is Some = Where"=20 stripe, Joe

> >Firmage; Spec-Warrior John Alexander and his = fellows of=20 the

> >"low-intensity/non-lethality" conflict doctrine = cadre; and=20 the lower

> echelons

> >like Robert Dean, Roger Leir (the podiatrist who = removes=20 "implants" from

> the

> >feet of abductees (because to remove the "other = ones"=20 would run afoul of

> >foot-surgery laws)...and of course, Roger's cousin = Dr.=20 Kenneth Ring, at

> Univ.

> >of Connecticut, the "Heading for Omega" man... and = even=20 lower echelons like

> >one Derrel Sims (a former "CIA parking lot guard" = who now=20 claims leadership

> >of an "anti-alien" faction of UFOlogists); Sean = David=20 Morton, who claims

> his

> >daddy was a Navy test pilot who later worked with = the=20 Apollo astronaut

> >program at NASA's JSC in Houston, and who in the = earlier=20 1990s was a

> "leading

> >light" on tabloid TV programs promoting "Area 51"=20 conspiracies and alleging

> >that the "Rockefellers caused AIDS" to be = developed and=20 spread (no kidding;

> >I'm not making this up, we have it in print).

> >

> >ALL of these people, who seem to be so "diverse," = have=20 traceable roots.

> Even

> >our esteemed Whitley Strieber, the = "alien-in-chief" of=20 commercial E.T.

> >advocacy, has a root in the USAF, through his = "Uncle Ed."=20 And of course,

> the

> >doyenne of UFOlogy and "cattle mutilations by = UFO-related=20 phenomena," Linda

> >Moulton Howe, has her own USAF connections, = including=20 through her brother

> and

> >her other intell linkages.

> >

> >What we have here is an interlocking network of=20 disinformationists and

> >cultists, at one time mystified by their own = seemingly=20 disparate beliefs,

> but

> >also joined at the proverbial hip by their = promotion of=20 the weirdest

> >interpretations rather than those of the perhaps = more=20 horrific but

> >nonetheless of more scientifically acceptable = genera.

> >

> >After a fourteen year program of monitoring and = analysis,=20 of the people and

> >their writings (and of the "source phenomena" = about which=20 they preach and

> >prophesy), it is clear that: if there are "alien = invaders"=20 among us, the

> very

> >much LOOK LIKE US!

> >

> >So before we go "hunting" for an enemy to shoot, = which we=20 no doubt will

> have

> >to do, it might be more effective for us to assess = just=20 who it is that,

> >collectively, are on the attack against American=20 democratic principles in

> >ways that undermine the fraying strands of our = Republic=20 and our abilities

> to

> >generate and sustain cohesive policies.

> >

> >The "alien fifth column" is decidedly already = infesting=20 our national

> fabfic,

> >aiming to sidetrack the export of self-governing=20 principles of "Liberty

> with

> >Responsibility" at a time when the planetary = civilization=20 is, for the first

> >time in this historic epoch, that we know of, = poised to=20 unify sufficiently

> >that we might actually survive as a species to = make our=20 own tentative steps

> >into space as one culture, then leap on to the = stars.

> >

> >Along the way, we can expect that the Baby Boomers = and our=20 offspring will

> >want to make changes in the way Earth manages its = affairs,=20 so that mindless

> >suffering and exploitation of the weak by the = stronger end=20 and cosmic

> >injustices are addressed. It is the obvious = intention of=20 the power-elites

> and

> >their "true believing" acolytes, some of whom I've = listed=20 in the

> "UFOlogical"

> >list preceding, to sow confusion instead of a = thrust to a=20 rational

> >consideration of our planetary status as = collaborative=20 humanity.

> >

> >In the guise of "deep ecology" and "planetary = crisis=20 management," the

> >oligarchs and their "Friendly Fascists" among the=20 UFOlogists and Ecologists

> >are confusing many and turning off the rest. The = "aliens"=20 are already among

> >us; just take a look around!

> >

> >Dick Farley <cloudrider@aol.com>

> >

> >P. S. - While Sean David Morton's published = allegation=20 about "Rockefellers

> >causing AIDS" to be developed and deployed, in = some=20 misguided population

> >control ploy, is no doubt intentionally specious, = a case=20 can be made from

> >other credible published sources worldwide that, = at least=20 philosophically,

> >the Club of Rome types would, as they have = publicly=20 advocated, create and

> >deploy strategies similar to what AIDS is doing,=20 especially in Africa and

> >Asia, ostensibly to control "useless eaters," in = the=20 parlance of the

> >self-anointed elites. Notably, the Club of Rome = types, in=20 this and in other

> >countries (including Liechtenstein, Italy, Germany = and=20 France) are "all

> over"

> >the so-called "UFO-alien E.T." scenarios which = have been=20 planted in this

> >cycle of what we call "The Vallee Effect," i.e., = the=20 seemingly cyclic rise

> >and fall of UFOlogy in the mass culture, targeting = emergent sub-generations

> >every seven to ten years, as Dr. Jacques Vallee = has=20 observed in several of

> >his books. Only problem is that Dr. Vallee is, of = course,=20 "one of them,"

> >perhaps like so many in this field, what Robin = Andrews=20 Quail (in Atlanta, a

> >long-time associate of Dr. Raymond Moody) has = called=20 "E.T.I. Prodigies,"

> >(people either abducted or influenced by seeming = "alien=20 mindset" which

> leaves

> >the percipient, either consciously or = unconsciously)=20 possessed of a body of

> >knowledge and a "sense" about such matters beyond=20 education or years. In

> many

> >cases, the percipient doesn't have the vocabulary = or=20 intellectual

> perspective

> >to be able to "handle" the packets of insight and=20 information "downloaded"

> to

> >him/her, leading to the observed (Vallee, et al.) = "silly=20 science" and

> >confusion, like the weird stuff earlier = "contactees" like=20 George Adamski

> and

> >Daniel Fry tried to "interpret." It is one of the = crimes=20 of the most recent

> >"UFOlogical" flap and high-profile publicity the = likes of=20 John Mack, Robert

> >Bigelow, Hans Adam (Liechtenstein) and Laurance S. = Rockefeller have

> >promulgated that a more rational discussion of = this=20 apparent set of

> phenomena

> >has not been allowed to surface without its being = targeted=20 and hijacked.

> >

> >One speculation, by myself and others, is that the = "big=20 boys" prefer to

> track

> >and to hijack such data themselves, for their own=20 potential profits and to

> >control alternative technologies which might "come = down"=20 through insights

> of

> >people not in their orbits or under their control, = thereafter leaving the

> >original percipients "in the dust" of their own = minds.=20 Those of you who

> work

> >for "the big boys" are, thus, guilty of genocide, = in that=20 many of the

> >"original ideas" which might have come from such=20 inspirations are not

> >receiving at least serious consideration, for = which our=20 children will curse

> >you all!

> >

> >It has been clear for at least hundreds of years = that many=20 of our "best new

> >ideas" come from the provinces of "dreams," = inspirations=20 and "visions." In

> >recent centuries, developers and researchers of = what we=20 now call the "hard

> >sciences" in many ways were, at their own times,=20 investigating what we now

> >also call "paranormal." What in the "old days" was = paranormal, once the

> >principles were identified and the "math" was = done, has=20 become "normal."

> This

> >leaves the alchemical and "the weird" out in the=20 hinterlands, as perhaps

> well

> >it should, so that our fellow citizens are = educated in=20 reason and

> reasoning,

> >enabling them to abandone their animism and=20 superstitions.

> >

> >But at the same time the Rockefellerian lackeys = are=20 studying "alien

> >contacts," they are also promoting a new = "totemism" and=20 inane worship of

> Gaia

> >and her nature cults to the exclusion of solid = science and=20 policies

> allowing

> >Earth to develop planetarily in a democratic = fashion,=20 based on evolving

> >information and collective human wisdom. In its = stead, an=20 educated

> >constituency is being deconstructed into = fragmentary=20 tribes.

> >

> >Just as their Third Reich and later their = "communist=20 ideology" failed, as

> >just as the socialist "vision" of poor deluded = Mikhail=20 Gorbachev and his

> >apostles will fail in the long run (because all = those=20 initiatives are

> >contrary to a fundamental human nature), those who = have=20 been promoting the

> >"UFO/ET/alien" paradigm will kill millions of us = in their=20 egomaniacal

> drives

> >to hang on to their illusion of power and control = over=20 Earth.

> >

> >That much is not in doubt and it requires neither = "psychic=20 power" nor

> genius

> >to see the repetition of tyranny in our own time = as we see=20 in the ruins of

> >cultures long dead. Whether in the Sumerian = interpretation=20 of Sitchin or

> the

> >"channelled memories" of Edgar Cayce and others = about=20 "Atlantis" and other

> >Promethean confrontations, we do not need "aliens" = in the=20 employ of oil

> >billionaires and software megalomaniacs to direct = us into=20 a future which

> >preserves the best of humanity as a "landed = species."

> >

> >Somebody doesn't want us to make the leap into = deep space,=20 and "they" are

> now

> >working furiously to undermine our confidence, as = a=20 species and a

> >civilization, that we may have something to = contribute to=20 the Cosmos "just

> >the way we are." I'm a bit suspicious of those who = posture=20 as our

> "planetary

> >leaders," while advocating all of the SOS ("same = old=20 s**t") in their

> >machinations at the U.N., the WTO, EC, et al. It = smacks of=20 their fears and

> >their impositions of their fears on our human = future as=20 it's to be

> >represented by our children, assuming they will be = allowed=20 to live free, as

> >is their human birthright. Whether we, as a = species, are=20 becoming "educated

> >beyond our intelligence" is the question on the = table. How=20 we ACT

> determines

> >the verdict!

> >

> >Would that the "planetery conversation" will one = day=20 reflect our true

> >situation and its potentials. Continued ignorance = and=20 willful disruption of

> >human intellectual evolution is every bit the = assurance as=20 might be the

> >wayward comet or a de-orbited asteroid.

> >DF

>

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Subject: Re: DARPA Research - Spintronics

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:48:04 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: "Gary S. Bekkum" <gbekkum@mediaone.net>

Yes, this the hardware of the human mind.

"Gary S. Bekkum" wrote:

> I suspect that this research is still about 20+ years = away=20 from "ET

> tech", unless it can be accelerated with "a little = help from=20 our (little

> blue) friends" :-)

>

> "In addition to providing a useful method for = measuring spin=20 relaxation,

> the Johnson-Silsbee spin injection experiment brought = about a=20 whole new

> field of electronics: spintronics. Indeed, spin = injection is=20 the most

> natural way to integrate spin dynamics with electronic = transport in

> electronic devices. There is no need for magnetic = field or=20 radiation to

> excite spin-polarized electrons. One only needs=20 ferromagnetic

> electrodes. The last truly fundamental obstacle in the = progress towards

> integrating the new spintronic with the traditional=20 semiconductor

> technology has been recently overcome with the = discovery of=20 spin

> injection into a semiconductor"

>

> --

> "The only justification for our concepts and system of = concepts is that

> they serve to represent the complex of our = experiences; beyond=20 this they

> have no legitimacy."

> Albert Einstein - "The Meaning of Relativity"

>

> "No formal 'talent', 'wunderkind abilities', personal=20 ambitions and

> relations, technical power, or material prosperity can = replace=20 the power

> of creation coming only from the open, free = interaction with=20 the Truth."

> Andrei Kirilyuk - "Universal Concept of = Complexity"

>

> "Through this 'Key' Divine Intention can be connected = to our=20 world, and

> to other may be worlds. Some of those worlds can be = the worlds=20 of our

> dreams. "The 'Key to the Universe' is the archetype of = evolution that

> now we know and can use consciously."

> George Ryazanov - "Key to Absolute Flight"

>

> "That's the effect of living backwards," the Queen = said=20 kindly: "it

> always makes one a little giddy at first...but there's = one=20 great

> advantage in it, that one's memory works both = ways."

> Lewis Carroll - "Through the Looking Glass"

>

>=20 = -------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Condensed Matter, abstract

> cond-mat/0009270

>

> From: Guido Burkard = <guido.burkard@unibas.ch>

> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:12:41 GMT (40kb)

>

> Spintronics and Quantum Computing with Quantum = Dots

>

> Authors: P. Recher, D. Loss, J. Levy

> Comments: 14 pages, 3 figures. To appear in the = Proceedins=20 of

> ``Macroscopic Quantum Coherence and Computing" - MQC2 = 2000,=20 eds. D. Averin

> and P. Silvestrini, 2000, Plenum Press, New York

> Subj-class: Mesoscopic Systems and Quantum Hall = Effect

>

> The creation, coherent manipulation, and measurement = of spins=20 in

> nanostructures open up completely new possibilities = for

> electronics and information processing, among them = quantum

> computing and quantum communication. We review our=20 theoretical

> proposal for using electron spins in quantum dots as=20 quantum

> bits. We present single- and two qubit gate mechanisms = in

> laterally as well as vertically coupled quantum dots = and=20 discuss

> the possibility to couple spins in quantum dots = via

> superexchange. We further present the recently = proposed=20 schemes

> for using a single quantum dot as spin-filter and = spin

> read-out/memory device.

>

> Paper: Source (40kb), PostScript, or Other formats

>

> (N.B.: delivery types and potential problems)

>

> = ----------------------------------------------------

> Links to: arXiv, cond-mat, /find, /abs (-/+), /0009, = ?

> = ----------------------------------------------------

>

> www-admin@arXiv.org

>

> Condensed Matter, abstract

> cond-mat/0006369

>

> From: Jaroslav Fabian = <jfabian@physics.umd.edu>

> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:49:20 GMT (8kb)

>

> Issues, Concepts, and Challenges in Spintronics

>

> Authors: S. Das Sarma, Jaroslav Fabian, Xuedong Hu, = Igor=20 Zutic

> Comments: 4 pages, no figures. Invited talk presented = at The=20 58th Annual

> Device Research Conference (June 19-21, 2000, Denver, = CO); to=20 appear in

> IEEE Proceedings

>

> We review from a theoretical perspective the emerging = field=20 of

> spintronics where active control of spin transport and = dynamics

> in electronic materials may provide novel device=20 application

> possibilities. In particular, we discuss the quantum=20 mechanical

> principles underlying spintronics applications, = emphasizing=20 the

> formidable challenges involving spin decoherence and = spin

> injection facing any eventual device fabrication. We = provide=20 a

> critical assessment of the current status of the field = with

> special attention to possible device applications.

>

> Paper: Source (8kb), PostScript, or Other formats

>

> (N.B.: delivery types and potential problems)

>

> = ----------------------------------------------------

> Links to: arXiv, cond-mat, /find, /abs (-/+), /0006, = ?

> = ----------------------------------------------------

>

> www-admin@arXiv.org

--

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Subject: Re: Gisin experiments

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 23:03:24 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: "Gary S. Bekkum" <gbekkum@mediaone.net>

Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.skeptic

 

"Gary S. Bekkum" wrote:

> "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" wrote:

>

> > This is the "Star Maker" level of Q in Star = Trek.

>

> Yes, Kaku also identifies the "Q" with "type = four".

>

> BTW have you read any of the Percival-Gisin = paper(s)?

Not yet. Note my analysis of Type 2 theory is not identical = to what=20 Gisin

et-al actually did. They have a relative motion between = their=20 detectors D1'

and D2', i.e. world lines not parallel with a common = velocity=20 vector u

relative to the Hubble flow like in my=20 http://stardrive.org/Jack/PQI.jpg

So my gedankenexperiment is not equivalent to Gisin's = actual=20 experiment, but

is closely related in that both variations on the theme can = test=20 for

objective speeds of collapse. If there is an objective = speed of=20 collapse,

even if it is infinite in the Hubble flow, it is not = infinite for=20 detectors

moving relative to the Hubble flow "aether", therefore, in = some=20 theories,

the EPR correlations can disappear when the detectors move = too=20 fast. The

idea here is that the collapse is an actual physically real = local

disturbance in the "aether" of the Hubble flow. This is the = Vigier,=20 for

example, thinks of it. It is not necessary to think this = way at=20 all.

However, if one does want to think that way, it has = testable=20 consequences I

am pointing out in different situations. This is also = related to=20 the issue

of whether configuration space is fundamental to quantum=20 entanglement, or

whether you can do everything in 3D space like Mendel Sachs = wants=20 to do? Any

Mendel Sachs type "aether theory" needs a real speed of = collapse=20 idea in

which EPR correlations can be made to disappear in = principle in=20 violation of

orthodox Copenhagen quantum theory ideas.

 

 

 

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Subject: Re: We Are Already There!!!!! (Farley in reply to = Dan=20 S.)

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 23:18:12 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: "Gary S. Bekkum" <gbekkum@mediaone.net>

CC: yokatta@oxy.edu

"Gary S. Bekkum" wrote:

> yokatta@oxy.edu wrote:

>

> > I don't think all this was

> > done from a distance, as someone suggested. On = the=20 contrary, I think it's

> > always been up close and personal, even more so = before we=20 finally began to

> > evolve a complex technology a couple of hundred = years=20 ago.

>

> The point about "post quantum" teleportation or even=20 advanced

> "nano-technology" is that there may be no real need to = travel=20 in the

> ordinary material sense of the word.

Yes, that's correct and very important. Note the actual = evidence=20 from COMETA and

elsewhere is that the alien flying saucers, with Star Gate=20 capability to get to

the universe next door less than a millimeter away in = hyperspace,=20 can also

maneuver very fast in the atmosphere and space superior to = anything=20 we can put

in the sky against them. It would be no contest in a = dogfight.=20 Therefore, we

must duplicate alien flight mechanics for our Spitfire = Squadrons=20 ASAP or we have

no defence at all should some ET's ever decide to get = aggressive.=20 In fact, right

now the USAF, the RAF, the IAF et-al are completely = ineffective=20 against a

hypothetical ET attack. We are one of the few competent = physical=20 science teams

aware of this problem and trying to correct a very bad = strategic=20 situation. My

only formal military training was when I was a lad I served = a term=20 (actually 4

terms) in the USAF ROTC at Cornell 1956-58, also Brooklyn = Civil Air=20 Patrol

1954-55, and experience on board US Navy warships at sea in = PACE=20 program in 70's

and 80's. Well that's enough I suppose to become Ruler of = the=20 Queen's Navy. :-)

> In theory it is only necessary to

> couple remotely located "alien-tech" directly to the=20 brain-mind system

> of the humans, which is about as "up close and = personal" as=20 you could

> expect to get. The aliens "go for a ride" right along = the=20 neural

> activity that is coupled to the human mind field in = such a=20 case.

> Whether this might require a material nano-tech = implant by a=20 physical

> invasive procedure is still a matter of developing = future=20 technologies.

>

> > As I've

> > mentioned before, I suspect that for millennia = they=20 maintained close-in

> > bases near most major human population centers; = in=20 pre-modern Europe,

> > these came to be known as "fairylands." People,=20 especially children, seem

> > to have been abducted and conditioned at these = bases by=20 highly

> > sophisticated mind-control techniques that we're = only=20 beginning to

> > discover independently (maybe with a little nudge = from=20 some of our more

> > sympathetic "friends"?).

>

> The implications of a "post quantum" theory like = Sarfatti's=20 complicates

> any interpretation of mental effects that might be = "observed"=20 since

> there is the possibility of all manner of strange = nonlocal=20 effects. I

> strongly suspect that "abduction" is not consensus = material=20 reality

> phenomena at all, but rather a post quantum procedure=20 involving mind

> field "teleportation".

>

> ---

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Subject: Re: Relativistic EPR-Bell Experiments

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:26:13 -0700 (PDT)

From: <stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov>

Reply-To: hpstapp@lbl.gov

To: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

CC: Barry Carter <bcarter@igc.org>, Robert Neil Boyd=20 <rnboyd@mip.net>,

Evan Harris Walker <wcri@erols.com>,

"Puthoff@aol.com" <Puthoff@aol.com>, Saul-Paul Sirag=20 <sirag@pond.net>,

"tsmith@innerx.net" <tsmith@innerx.net>,

Vladimir Poponin <vladimir@isso.org>,

"Dr. Eric W. Davis" <ericdavis@nidsci.org>,

"Gary G. Ford" <Swimp@home.com>, Creon Levit=20 <creon@isso.org>,

"dewatson@sunflower.com" = <dewatson@sunflower.com>,

Gary E Schwartz <gschwart@U.Arizona.EDU>,

Gary Osborn <Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk>,

"JagdishM@aol.com" <JagdishM@aol.com>,

Joe Firmage <jfirmage@intendchange.com>,

L Dunning = <transparent_metals_manufacturing@hotmail.com>,

"lensman@stardrive.org" <lensman@stardrive.org>,

"pandolfi@zzapp.org" <pandolfi@zzapp.org>,

"urigeller@compuserve.com" = <urigeller@compuserve.com>,

Stan Klein <klein@spectacle.berkeley.edu>

>From stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov Mon Sep 25 09:17:28 2000

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:16:54 -0700 (PDT)

From: stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov

Reply-To: hpstapp@lbl.gov

To: Dr. Jack Sarfatti <sarfatti@well.com>

Subject: Re: Relativistic EPR-Bell Experiments

Dear Jack,

Your latest communication is very helpful:

it pin-points where your understanding of my

theory differs from my theory as I define and

understand it.

The point is this: When I refer to frame

independence the frame that I am referring

to is the frame that is used to define the

surfaces along which the state of the universe

Psi(t) at time t is defined. In the von Neumann-

Wigner measurement theory that I use the state

Psi(t) undergoes abrupt changes (called collapse

or reductions) at certain instants of time. The

von Neumann theory was formulated in non-

relativistic terms, so the question arises:

How do we make it relativistic? My answer is

to use Tomonaga-Schwinger (T-S) theory, and to

pick from all of the infinitude of spacelike

surfaces `sigma' that T-S allow some particular

ones, namely the constant time surfaces t=3Dconst.

in the rest frame of the cosmic background

radiation, as the surfaces which are to be

identified with the constant time surfaces

of vN/W quantum theory (of measurements),

and hence the surfaces on which the instantaneous

collapses occur. Thus the Psi(t) of vN/W gets

equated to the Psi(sigma(t)) of T-S, where the

surface sigma(t) is the special T-S surface

that is the time=3Dt surface in the cosmic

rest frame (rest frame of cosmic black-body

radiation). This is for special relativity,

which I believe should be OK for

understanding the mind-brain interaction:

my aim here is to elevate vN/W quantum theory

to relativistic status by tieing it to T-S

theory, which is formulated for special

relativity.]

This specification introduces a huge

dependence of the theory, at the

level of the underlying reality, on this

special choice of coordinate frame.

But the T-S theory, coupled with vN

measurement theory, shows that the predictions

of the theory about observations in fact

do not depend upon which frame was used to

define the surfaces sigma(t) that define

the state of the universe at time t: all

choices give the same predictions about

observation, and hence the same prediction

about whether or not the EPR correlation

is present or not. The prediction that

EPR correlations will be present is

independent of this choice of frame.

Of course, the picture of what is "really

happening" would be very different for

different choices of the frame that

defines the instants t=3Dconst along which

the collapses occur, but the prediction

about the EPR correlation does not depend

on that choice. Similarly, the prediction

that the EPR correlation will be present

does not depend on the frame in which

the experiment is done: the same EPR

correlation will be present in a space

ship that is at rest in the frame in which

the t=3Dconst surfaces are defined as in

a space ship that is moving rapidly in

that frame [insofar as there is no

significant interaction with things

outside the spaceship.]

These are the key results of T-S QED,

combined, of course, with vN theory of

measurement.

As I mentioned in earlier replies, what

is `really happening' will depend on which

experiment is performed first in the frame

that defines the instantaneous states of

the universe, but the predictions pertaining

to observations will not.

The essential point, here, is that I am

using the non-dependence of the prediction

about observations upon `real' differences,

such as differences in the velocities of two

spaceships: the T-S-vN theory shows that the

the prediction about the EPR correlation

WILL BE INDEPENDENT OF THAT REAL DIFFERENCE!

The predictions are `relativistically

invariant' in this non trivial sense.

I am NOT talking about the trivial non-dependence

upon how fast `observers' are moving. This

non dependence upon the velocity of the

observer of whether a geiger counter

will be seen to click or not is taken for

granted. It is NOT this trivial nondependence

that T-S-vN theory assures. This theory

assure the nontrivail nondependences. That is

why I use it.

Your messages of Sept 23 make it clear that

you were under the impression that the

nondependence that I was talking about was

of the trivial kind generated by what you

call

> above fundamental metaphysical ontological = principle.

But I was referring to the nontrivial results that are

generated by T-S-vN/W quantum theory. This difference

between the nontrivial results that I was using and the

trivial result that you believed that I was using

explains all the difficulties that you were pointing

out in your messages of Sept 23.

Best regards,

Henry

P.S Please forward to the two sci forums.

Subject: Re: Dan's double-bind

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:05:38 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: Dan Smith <dansmith@clark.net>

CC: "Lawrence B. Crowell" <lcrowell@swcp.com>,=20 CloudRider@aol.com

Dan Smith wrote:

> Larry,

>

> Without trying too hard you have, nonetheless, managed = to=20 misconstrue my

> argument.

Look who'se talking. Pot calling kettle black.

>

>

> Bless you! You are actually a precious resource here, = being=20 one of the very

> few non-ufologists braving these alien infested = waters. There=20 is a creepy

> critter under almost every one of these rocks. Just = ask=20 Dick!

Dick is emotionally unbalanced, so are you. You both are=20 intelligent and

know a

lot but you are both mad as hatters. Everynow and then you = come up=20 with

some

interesting information, but for the most part you cloud = the issues=20 with

Red

Herrings and introduce discord.

>

>

> I wonder if you don't think we aren't just a bit = deficient in=20 the sanity

> department.

Larry has his own problems in that department. Dan, you are = fixated=20 on

the

"Eschaton". You have the reality psychosis from Niels Bohr = quite=20 badly.

Dick is

fixated on Mr. Rockefeller and the personal sex lives of = certain=20 key

people that

are really quite irrelevant and none of his business. Larry = wanted=20 to be

a

garbage man when he grew up and has not resolved that = failure to=20 attain

his

goal. Consequently, he sees civilization as "garbage". = Larry is=20 a

Misanthrope.

So we have Dan, Dick and Larry. This is great for a comic=20 strip.

>

>

> You do seem to recognize that 'insanity' is a fact of = life,=20 and not likely

> to go away in anyone's lifetime.

In your case it's here to stay.

>

>

> If we were to put a positive spin on insanity, we = could simply=20 call it

> thinking outside the box. It would seem, Larry, that = you are a=20 confirmed

> boxologist. When it comes to paradigms, you would much = rather=20 fight than

> switch. You serve here as a sometimes articulate=20 representative of the

> silent majority of non-boatrockers.

Yes, that is completely accurate about Larry. He identifies = with=20 the

aggressor

since he is really quite eccentric and non-mainstream. He = is one of=20 us

Dan. I am

sure Scott would classify him as a "hybrid". :-)

>

>

> It is a very comforting sight to see the ship of state = sailing=20 peacefully

> into the sunset. Who would want to disturb such a = picture? At=20 other times

> we cast a weather eye and see a red sky in the = morning. Do we=20 batten down

> the hatches or do we set every sail and hope to outrun = the=20 storm? Do we

> throw caution to the winds?

>

> All of us ufologists see a larger reality than you=20 boxologists. There is

> before us a kind of Pascal's wager. The ufologists = might be=20 wrong, and if

> we are what is the harm? You are concerned that we = might upset=20 the ship of

> state. Our particular 'insanity' does show the = tangible=20 effects of

> contagion. The UFO virus has demonstrated its = virulency.

This is good Dan - another brief moment of brilliant = clarity. You=20 fail

to

mention that Bohr's Copenhagen meme virus is much more = virulent and=20 has

done

much more damage than the UFO meme. Read Rebecca = Goldstein's=20 "The

Properties of

Light".

> Spreading such a

> virus before a storm would seem to be the height of = folly. At=20 the first

> gust of wind the ship of state might go belly-up. = Better that=20 we keep our

> shoulders to the wheel, our noses to the grindstone, = and so=20 on.

>

> Science and technology have brought us a great = abundance. Let=20 us not look

> this gift horse too carefully in the mouth. But this = is just=20 where things

> get to be slightly interesting.

>

> Just what is this gift horse of science on whose tit = we have=20 been sucking

> for lo' these several centuries? How many more = centuries of=20 milk are left

> in this tit, and where will we be when that well runs = dry?

>

> You pat us the head and tell us that the well shows no = sign of=20 going dry,

> and that we need not worry our little minds, but just = keep our=20 noses to the

> gindstone of science and we will continue to receive = our just=20 rewards.

>

> Ah, but there is just one little hitch in this = swagger. Beyond=20 Pascal's

> wager, we now have Fermi's paradox. Where are all the = other=20 little suckers?

> Why aren't they here already? If Science is the = ultimate=20 cosmic tit, then

> the universe should be swarming with life and we = should be=20 seeing ample

> signs of it. Do we not instead smell something fishy, = of=20 cosmic

> proportions?

>

> And so a great debate rages both inside and outside = the halls=20 of Academe.

> If they aren't here, why not? If they are, why are = they being=20 so damned coy

> about it?

>

> Larry, if the cosmic tit is as great as you say it is = then we=20 surely should

> at least have been contacted by some of the other = little=20 suckers out there

> who should have been on this tit for at least a = thousand times=20 longer than

> we have.

You keep omitting time travellers from our future. You are = not=20 only

stuck in

Bohr's unreality psychosis Dan, but you cannot think = outside the=20 box of

retarded

causality. Physician, heal thyself. My direct evidence is = that the=20 the

Visitors

are from our future, or so they apparently told me in 1953. = Colonel

Corso also

introduced that idea independently.

>

>

> This is why, Larry, UFO debunking is such a grim and = lonely=20 sport. UFOs,

> for better or worse, are our most tangible form of = hope. Most=20 observers of

> the human scene will tell you that hope is our very = most rare=20 and most

> precious commodity. If people have no hope, you can = forget=20 your wheels and

> grindstones, those people will simply not be getting = out of=20 bed in the

> morning.

>

> Science can ever only point to the past,

There! Retarded causality!

"The future is the home of explanation."

Henry Dwight Sedgwick, 1908

> and it can never legitimately speak

> to the question of whether its Sun will be able to = rise again=20 tomorrow. It

> is only the ufologists who can lay claim to the hopes = and=20 fears of all our

> years.

>

> It is your precious Science, Larry, that set us on our = collision course with

> this, our ufological destiny. Now that this collision = is upon=20 us in a

> culturally irreversible manner, you wish to turn the = clock=20 back to a simpler

> and less portentious time. Too bad!

>

> If the UFOs are not here, you had better pray for a = new,

> science-transcending source of hope. If they are here, = well,=20 you had still

> better pray, just the same! You can call this 'Smith's = double-bind'. It

> takes us far, far beyond Pascal's wager and Fermi's=20 paradox!

>

> Dan

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Lawrence B. Crowell = <lcrowell@swcp.com>

> Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000 11:34 AM

> Subject: Re: Nintendo vs Erector & the American = Way

>

> >At 10:53 AM 9/24/00 -0400, Dan Smith wrote:

> >>Dick & Jack,

> >>

> >>If you were one tenth the champion of = democracy that=20 you purport to be,

> you

> >>would not be wasting your time preaching to = all of us=20 'subversive, pinko

> >>aliens in disguise'. You would instead be = running for=20 the presidency of

> >>your PTA.

> >

> >The thrust of this I tend to agree with. Worrying = about=20 UFOs is utterly

> >silly. If one is concerned about the human = condition and=20 how physics and

> >science has an input into the problem I can = suggest a few=20 more relevant

> >things to consider.

> >

> >1) Developing new energy sources and looking for = new=20 physics that might

> >provide abundant and far less polluting energy. We = are=20 rapidly approaching

> >the max output of petroleum production and there = is the=20 political prospect

> >that coal and nuclear fission will be held up as = the=20 sources to fill the

> >void. Both of these are terribly environmentally=20 destructive.

> >

> >2) We need to understand the Earth as a complete = system=20 and how energy and

> >matter are cycled through the hydrological, = atmospheric=20 and biospheric

> >systems. From such understanding we can arrive at = a=20 strategy for adapting

> >our technological infrastructure so that it has = minimal=20 physical impact on

> >these systems.

> >

> >3) We need to figure out how to improve the = infrastructure=20 of developing

> >regions of the world. People in these regions are = impacted=20 by the

> >developed world where social complexity has been = increased=20 through

> >technical capabilities. As many of these people do = not=20 have access to the

> >technical tools their situations are most often = reduced to=20 deprivation.

> >This problem needs to be urgently addressed.

> >

> >4) We need to shift our the political basis of = scientific=20 research away

> >from weaponry. Military development is the largest = single=20 basis for

> >scientific or physics research. That we devote = vast=20 amounts of material

> >and financial resources in this direction does not = bode=20 well for the long

> >term future.

> >

> >best,

> >

> >Lawrence B. Crowell

--

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Subject: Re: Gisin experiments & COMETA/UFO

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:06:42 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: Bill Page <bill.page1@sympatico.ca>

Bill Page wrote:

> Jack,

>

> On Monday, September 25, 2000 11:32 AM you wrote:

> >> [Bill]

> >> Of course Mendel Sachs' theory is no more an = "aether=20 theory"

> >> than general relativity is an "aether = theory",

> >[Jack]

> >Bill you are wrong. Einstein called GR an aether = theory=20 explicitly in

> >1924, Dirac also reintroduced the "aether". It is = not same=20 as old

> >19th century Galilean aether obviously because of=20 Diff(4).

>

> No, Jack, you misunderstand. Perhaps I should have = said:

> "Mendel Sachs' theory is no more, *nor less* of an = aether=20 theory

> than general relativity". I accept that GR can be = viewed as=20 an

> aether theory in the sense specified by Einstein and=20 Dirac.

Fine, you were not clear first time. As far as Stapp's = attempt=20 to

explain

the Gisin type experiments in terms of an objective = collapse of a=20 real

psi

function with a detectable "speed" in terms of orthodox T-S = special

relativistic quantum field theory, he is not consistent. = Even=20 Gisin

et-al

inquant-ph/0007008 write of T-S theory

"... form an 'orthodox viewpoint .... two observers, each = using=20 quantum

prescriptions, predict the same final probabilities .... = the=20 state

vector

and its evolution are not endowed with reality."

Therefore in T-S "Theory 1" the idea of the speed of a = physically=20 real

collapse cannot even be formulated, so for Stapp to use = terms=20 like

"preferred frame" (PF) and further claim that he can use a = real=20 "speed

of

collapse" in that orthodox context is inconsistent. This = was my=20 main

point.

I am not arguing for the reality of speed of collapse in 3D = space.

Although, if it could be measured it would make Mendel = Sach's=20 general

idea

more plausible. I am more interested in Bohm's conjecture = that=20 the

quantum

potential Q acts instantly in the PF of the Hubble flow. = Stapp made=20 the

equvalent conjecture but IMO did not follow through with it = in=20 a

consistent

way.

Larry Crowell brought up the fact that the idea of = covariance means=20 that

the laws of physics are not tied to a PF. That is certainly = true

classically. Classically this idea of covariance means that = the

differential equations expressing laws of physics in the=20 classical

space-time continuum must be tensor (or spinor) equations=20 transforming

homogeneously under both the Lorentz group in the local = tangent=20 spaces

of

the curved geometrodynamical manifold and the = topology-conserving=20 global

1-1 reversible Diff(4) "general coordinate transformations" = with=20 a

symmetrical connection field. This is the orthodox 1915 GR = picture.=20 It

is

becoming increasingly obvious in the light of real=20 observational

scientific

data from the UFO/ET phenomenon, summarized most recently = in the=20 COMETA

report from high ranking French Military Intelligence = people some=20 of

General rank, and also from a similar earlier meeting in=20 America

organized

by Laurance Rockefeller with Hal Puthoff et-al, that this=20 simple

classical

picture may not be adequate on several grounds. This = problem has=20 great

urgency since it is now a public fact that the air forces = of all=20 the

major

powers are no match for these alien craft in a dog fight so = that we=20 are

completely defenceless and at the mercy of alien ETs whose=20 intentions

towards us are ambiguous as shown by the "abduction" = studies of=20 John

Mack

and others. The rug has been pulled out from under us and = this=20 obviously

explains why there has been a UFO coverup all these past = fifty=20 years

because our top military leaders are in a panic and = perplexed about=20 how

to

handle this embarassing and dangerous situation. Indeed, = this is=20 one

reason

why Gorbachev threw in the towel and decided to join = America and=20 NATO in

a

common defence effort against a possible ET threat. Ronald = Reagan=20 was

quite

clear about this as was General Douglas Mac Arthur and = later a=20 member of

his staff, Colonel Phillip J. Corso. This is the reality. = We are=20 like

the

Lilliputans and Gulliver is pissing on us.

Now to return to Stapp's physics. It is relevant to the UFO = problem=20 and

how

to handle it. It is not clear that the classical notion of=20 covariance

i.e.

laws of physics not tied to a PF are actually true at the = quantum=20 level.

So

this is why we continue to investigate alternative theories = "out of=20 the

box" for logical self-consistency and empirical = falsifiablilty.=20 This is

what has been going on between me and Stapp for the past = week. For=20 the

record, I am not professing this or that theory here, = merely doing=20 a

meta-analysis on alternative theories about the fundamental = fabric=20 of

reality. Such fundamental understanding is prerequisite to = our=20 achieving

technlogical parity with ET since it is obvious that they = have a=20 Type 4

(Kaku) civilization with Star Gate engineering. (e.g. Jan = &=20 Aug

Scientific

American).

> And

> since Sachs' introduces a notion of "physical vacuum"=20 rather

> similar to Shipov, perhaps it is even more of an = aether=20 theory,

> rather than less. Einstein's "aether theory" view of = GR as=20 well as

> Sachs' work and Shipov's "universal relativity" differ = from=20 the

> earlier aether theories in that they also have a = completely=20 geometrical

> basis. That an interpretation of this geometry in = terms of=20 physical

> hydrodynamic-like systems exists is only an aid to our = intuition

> and not an essential part of the theory.

>

> Regards,

> Bill Page.

--

CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

http://stardrive.org

Subject: Re: UFO/ET Threat Assessement

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:14:03 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: yokatta@oxy.edu

Yes, I agree with this. It's pretty much where I am coming = from

independently. This is also why Dan Smith's lumping me in = with=20 Dick

Farley's politically unbalanced paranoid ideas was so = unfair=20 and

inaccurate. Dan obviously is also off balance most of the = time as=20 you

have found out for yourself. We are relatively sober = compared to=20 them.

:-)

yokatta@oxy.edu wrote:

> Hi Jack,

>

> Re your assertion that you need "...to qualify my = support of=20 this [my

> recent comments]" and that "Our objective is tolerance = with=20 ET. The

> parallel with racism is obvious and we must be leary = of=20 falling into an

> unconscious racism with regard to ETs and ET-human = "hybrids".=20 Many of us

> are hybrids already. Modern man is probably a hybrid." = As a=20 lefto

> anthropologist, I certainly agree that we need to = combat=20 racism wherever

> we can. Indeed, despite David Jacobs' pessimistic = assessment,=20 it's still

> by no means clear what the ETs' ultimate intentions = are. And I=20 strongly

> suspect that there are "liberal" factions among them,=20 ideological heirs to

> the prototypes of Prometheus and Quetzalcoatl, who = would like=20 to see open

> cooperation between our two species and an end to the=20 exploitation of our

> DNA. So I'm wide open to any arrangement that fosters = such=20 open and free

> cooperation among us.

>

> But, at the same time, we must never forget that we're = still=20 colonial

> subjects, no matter how benign (or nasty) our colonial = masters=20 may be. And

> I for one resent that status. Make no mistake about = it, in the=20 last

> analysis, we're still the "natives" in the eyes of the = ET=20 colonial

> establishment, with about as many rights vis-a-vis = that=20 establishment as

> the Australian & South African natives had until = very=20 recently.

>

> Some years ago, an exiled black South African author = whose=20 name escapes me

> wrote a book entitled THE GOD-DAMNED WHITE MAN. = Although=20 tolerance and

> openness on both sides is certainly a highly desirable = goal, I=20 could easily

> sympathize with an abused abductee who might write a = book=20 entitled THE

> GOD-DAMNED ALIEN. (This would not be yours truly as, = to the=20 best of my

> knowledge, I've yet to have the pleasure of being a = "guest" in=20 some ET

> genetics lab.)

>

> Re the possibility that we anatomically modern Homo = sapiens=20 were

> genetically engineered by the ETs, I doubt whether = they've=20 been here long

> enough. Indeed, the final evolution of our species ca. = 140k=20 years ago in

> the northern Kalahari (or perhaps the southern tip of = the=20 continent) is

> more efficiently explained by conventional = anthropological=20 models,

> including "Mitochondrial Eve"--although that there are = far=20 more alien

> genes in the modern human genome than even David = Jacobs=20 suspects is

> probably true. And that probably does include you and = me. Hey,=20 where do

> you think all those European genes in the modern = African=20 American

> community came from? You got it! From forced = "abductions" of=20 African

> American women back in the bad old days of = slavery.

>

> "So, in accord with the Prime Directive of The = Federation, our=20 policy must

> always be tolerance toward alien ET species when we = encounter=20 them. Of

> course, if they are hostile and abduct people we must = be=20 prepared for

> defence as we would be for any pirates or terrorists = human or=20 nonhuman or

> partly human who abuse innocent noncombatants."

>

> Again, I agree; we do need rules of = engagement--although I=20 envision your

> "Star Fleet" as the military arm of an underground, = planetary=20 liberation

> movement rather than a conventional armed force.

>

> Cheers,

> Scott

>

> C. SCOTT LITTLETON "Any sufficiently evolved

> Professor of Anthropology technology is = indistinguishable

> Occidental College from magic."

> Los Angeles, CA 90041 --Arthur C. Clarke

> TEL (323) 259-2759

> FAX (323) 341-4969 "I think we're property...."

> http://www.oxy.edu/~yokatta/home.htm --Charles = Fort

--

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http://stardrive.org

Subject: Re: UFO/ET Threat Assessement

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:43:18 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: yokatta@oxy.edu

Clarification

>

>

> yokatta@oxy.edu wrote:

>

>

> > Again, I agree; we do need rules of = engagement--although=20 I envision your

> > "Star Fleet" as the military arm of an = underground,=20 planetary liberation

> > movement rather than a conventional armed = force.

> >

Star Fleet will require a huge committment of planetary = resources=20 and cannot be

done underground unless Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Larry = Ellison et-al=20 all got

behind it, not likely, and even then one needs the full = cooperation=20 of the

Pentagon, CIA, London, Paris, NATO, Moscow, Peking,=20 India-Pakistan,

Israel-Egypt-Jordan et-al. The task is simply too massive, = much=20 bigger than the

Manhattan Project or JFK's call to go to the Moon. It = requires=20 General

Mobilization of the hearts and minds of the total = population and=20 cooperation from

the multi-national corporations. It's either that, or to = passively=20 accept our

fate as "colonial subjects" of ET.

--

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http://stardrive.org

Subject: Re: Relativistic EPR-Bell Experiments

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:58:13 -0700

From: Stan Klein <klein@spectacle.berkeley.edu>

To: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>,=20 hpstapp@lbl.gov

CC: Barry Carter <bcarter@igc.org>, Robert Neil Boyd=20 <rnboyd@mip.net>,

Evan Harris Walker <wcri@erols.com>,

"Puthoff@aol.com" <Puthoff@aol.com>, Saul-Paul Sirag=20 <sirag@pond.net>,

"tsmith@innerx.net" <tsmith@innerx.net>,

Vladimir Poponin <vladimir@isso.org>,

"Dr. Eric W. Davis" <ericdavis@nidsci.org>,

"Gary G. Ford" <Swimp@home.com>, Creon Levit=20 <creon@isso.org>,

"dewatson@sunflower.com" = <dewatson@sunflower.com>,

Gary E Schwartz <gschwart@U.Arizona.EDU>,

Gary Osborn <Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk>,

"JagdishM@aol.com" <JagdishM@aol.com>,

Joe Firmage <jfirmage@intendchange.com>,

L Dunning = <transparent_metals_manufacturing@hotmail.com>,

"lensman@stardrive.org" <lensman@stardrive.org>,

"pandolfi@zzapp.org" <pandolfi@zzapp.org>,

"urigeller@compuserve.com" = <urigeller@compuserve.com>,

Stan Klein <klein@spectacle.berkeley.edu>

>[Jack 1]

>>So my gedankenexperiment is not equivalent to = Gisin's=20 actual

>>experiment, but is closely related in that both = variations=20 on the

>>theme can test for objective speeds of collapse. If = there=20 is an

>>objective speed of collapse, even if it is infinite = in the=20 Hubble

>>flow, it is not infinite for detectors moving = relative to=20 the

>>Hubble flow "aether", therefore, in some theories, = the=20 EPR

>>correlations can disappear when the detectors move = too=20 fast. The

>>idea here is that the collapse is an actual = physically real=20 local

>>disturbance in the "aether" of the Hubble flow.

[Jack 2]

Therefore in T-S "Theory 1" the idea of the speed of a=20 physically

real collapse cannot even be formulated, so for Stapp to = use=20 terms

like "preferred frame" (PF) and further claim that he can = use a=20 real

"speed of collapse" in that orthodox context is = inconsistent.

>[Stan comment on Jack 1]

>So let me try it once more. This time I'll do it from = Jack's=20 point of view.

>

>Let me work in a preferred frame (it could be Hubble = but it=20 could be

>the sun) where the collapse has infinite velocity. = Let's call=20 it

>Frame A. In any preferred frame the collapse has to = have=20 infinite

>velocity. Once I choose this preferred frame ALL = calculations=20 must

>be done in that frame, that's how preferred frames = work.=20 Jack,

>that's what I think you are not accepting. You want to = go to=20 a

>nonpreferred frame where the collapse velocity is = finite (Frame=20 B),

>and then do a Gisin expt. In this new frame one might = think=20 that the

>Bell correlations will disappear because the two = measurements=20 can

>occur faster than the collapse can handle. BUT the = point of=20 having

>chosen the preferred frame is that THAT is the frame in = which=20 to

>calculate. That's what one means by a preferred frame. = In Frame=20 B

>the two measurements might be simultaneous with the = finite=20 collapse

>speed. But in Frame A those two measurements are = separated in=20 time

>so it is very easy for the influence to occur to = maintain the=20 Bell

>correlations. And it is to Frame A with its infinite=20 velocity

>collapse that I must go to do the calculations.

>

>You then worry about having to do all calculations in = Frame=20 A

>because it seems to violate relativistic invariance = that says=20 we

>should be able to pick any frame. But Henry's Frame A = quantum=20 field

>theory is quite cleverly done so that all experimental = outcomes=20 are

>100% compatible with all predictions of relativistic=20 invariance.

>Feynman showed that to be true and I guess Schwinger = and=20 Tomonaga

>did too.

>

>In summary, in an ontology with a preferred frame one=20 calculates in

>that frame.

[Stan comment on Jack 2]

I believe you are wrong. Of course one can have a preferred = frame=20 in

Feynman-Tomonaga-Schwinger quantum field theory. It is done = all=20 the

time. That's how it was done before FTS. Instead of=20 relativistic

propagators of the Feynman type one had denominators like = 1/(E-E0)=20 +

1/(E+E0) or something similar, and maybe with appropriate i = epsilons.

It's been too many years since I've done that, but I do = fondly

remember doing relativistic field theory in preferred = frames.=20 The

notion of a real collapse with infinite velocity in that=20 preferred

frame was implicit in those formulations as I recall. But = Henry=20 is

way more knowledgeable about these matters than I.

Subject: Re: Contra Stapp on Gisin/Ontological = Principle

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:25:45 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: Stanley Klein <klein@spectacle.berkeley.edu>

Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.skeptic

To the usual suspects:

Stanley Klein wrote:

> Larry Crowell said:

> The argument here is curious. First off the idea that = there is=20 a

> preferred frame whereby qubits from wave function = collapse=20 traverse

> instantaneously is an ugly idea in the extreme.

I do not find it ugly. It's only ugly if you think global=20 special

relativity is the best theory possible. The point now = whether or=20 not it

makes sense and could be true at the quantum level. Is it=20 Popper

falsifiable or not? Gisin et-al think so - they are writing = papers=20 on it

and giving data. We also need to test the idea of classical = covariance

that all the laws of physics are local tensor (spinor) = equations=20 even

when quantum nonlocality is strong.

We have to distinguish passive observation from active=20 participation when

we entertain the notion of absolute uniform motion of = photon=20 detectors

and absolute rest in terms of isotropy of CMB (Cosmic = Microwave

background) in the Hubble flow. Physics is supposed to be = an=20 experimental

subject. We have a perfectly good operational definition of = absolute rest

and absolute speeds as departure of CMB from maximal = isotropy in=20 the

power spectrum. The existence of the CMB is a quantum = effect not=20 found

in the classical geometrodynamical field equations of = Einstein's=20 1915 GR.

It may well be that classical Diff(4) gauge symmetry of = classical=20 GR is

broken for nonlocal quantum entanglements in the = stress-energy=20 tensor

fields.

> Secondly, there is

> little reason to think that information travels = through=20 spacelike

> intervals in quantum observation.

>

> This particular interpretation with a real collapse = may be=20 ugly. But

> is it surely one of the quite standard = interpretations. Isn't=20 it the

> von Neumann metaphysics?

Not clear. Henry would know the history. If vN stuck to=20 Copenhagen,

collapse is not real, it's all in the mind like Heisenberg = said -=20 psi is

about our knowledge only. This is the unreality psychosis. = This is=20 not

the same as saying that psi is a physically real mental = field=20 piloting a

material particle. In the case of an isolated particle we = know that=20 the

phase speed of the psi wave is superluminal and its group = speed

identified with the particle is subluminal obeying the same = equation v =3D

c^2/u where u is the particle group speed. Therefore, it = seems=20 natural to

suppose that the speed of collapse of the psi-wave is = infinite in=20 the

rest frame of the particle with no need at all for a PF and = no need=20 at

all for the Hubble flow PF in particular. On the other = hand,=20 Suppose

Stapp is right about the Hubble flow PF. That is, the = universe has=20 a

frame of absolute rest and all velocities are to be = referred to it.=20 One

still uses special relativity locally. So our Galaxy is = moving at u=20 =3D 371

km/sec relative to the Hubble PF "cosmological rest = frame".

u/c =3D 10^-3

(v/c)^2 =3D 10^-6

1/(1 - (v/c)^2)^1/2 ~ 1 + (1/2)10^-6

Compton wavelength h/mc + 10^-11 cm, Compton frequency is = then=20 3x10^21

Hz., so 10^-6 of that is 10^15 Hz and 10^-8 of that is = 10^13 Hz.=20 These

motional effects should not be hard to measure if they are = there.=20 A

careful analysis of atomic spectra plotted against time of=20 observation

should reveal such effects rather easily if anyone has = bothered to=20 even

look?

The Rydberg is

R =3D (1/4pi epsilon)^2 (m e^4/4pi (hbar)^3c) =3D 10^7 = (meters)^-1

cR =3D 3 10^15 Hz

Lyman series

fn =3D R(1 - 1/n^2) n =3D 2,3,4...

Balmer series

fn =3D R(1/4 - 1/n^2) n =3D 3,4,5...

Paschen series

fn =3D R(1/9 - 1/n^2), n =3D 4,5,6...

So the effect in atomic spectra is of order 10^9 Hz for = motion of=20 the

galaxy

Therefore, on Stapp's Hubble flow PF conjecture, i.e. = infinite=20 speed of

collapse in the Hubble PF, about (1/2)10^-6 of the rest = mass of=20 the

electron we measure in the G-frame is really motional. Has = anyone=20 ever

looked for temporal variations in the rest mass of the = electron=20 for

example? The motion of the Earth around the Sun is of order = 30=20 km/sec, so

that's

u/c =3D 30/300,000 =3D 3x 10^-4

(u/c)^2 =3D 5x10^-8

The effect of variations in the Earth's motion around the = Sun=20 should then

be of order 10^7 Hz. So this is where to start looking for = tests=20 of

Stapp's conjecture that the Hubble flow is a PF of absolute = rest=20 with

infinite quantum wave collapse speed.

What about spontaneous emission and the Shnoll observations = in=20 Moscow?

>From Bohm's "Quantum Theory" (Dover) p. 430 eq. 58, for = an=20 isotropic 3D

harmonic oscillator potential on the electron in the = electric=20 dipole

approximation has a spontaneous emission rate per unit = solid angle=20 that

scales as 1/m..

>

> Then you say there is little reason to think that = information=20 travels

> faster than light. I agree that we shouldn't call it=20 information.

Bohm calls it information, so does Stapp. It's not c-bits = of=20 Shannon, but

qubits.

> I

> thought the approved language was 'influence'. And in = the Von=20 Neumann

> metaphysics the collapse does go faster than light

The issue I have raised with Stapp is whether the alleged = faster=20 than

light "influence" obeys the same laws of special relativity = SR=20 locally

that matter does? It would be ugly if it did not. If it = does obey=20 SR then

instant influence in the Hubble flow PF is finite = superluminal in=20 any

other foliation into spacelike surfaces v =3D c^2/u. If = this law is=20 not

obeyed we are in a strange situation that contradicts our = use of=20 Lorentz

group in Hilbert space.

> so the influence

> that guarantees the spins to be opposite does have to = move=20 fast.

>

> If you haven't gotten today's flurry of emailings on = Gisin, I=20 could

> forward it to you.

>

> best,

> Stan

--

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Subject: Re: Dalai Lama?/PSI WARS

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:23:20 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: S-P & M-M Sirag <sirag@pond.net>

Newsgroups: sci.skeptic

PSI WARS UPDATE

Thanks Saul-Paul, I have not been following this thread = recently=20 until I saw your

name. I was reminded to correct my David Padwa story that = Gregory=20 Corso garbled a

wee bit. I heard from cousin Padwa recently. You will = recall Padwa=20 was involved

with that really weird multiple synchronicity with Rashi de = Troyes,=20 Margherita

Sarfatti, the photo of me holding the then out of print = book "My=20 World Line" (North

Beach Magazine) Padwa was looking for and then found at = City Lights=20 Book Store

within a few hours of meeting me at 1980 AAAS meeting where = Wheeler=20 bashed

parapsychologists etc. Padwa confirmed he is close to = Gregory Corso=20 as I was when I

met Padwa in 1980. Padwa just visited Gregory who is dying = now in=20 Greenwich Village

of prostate problems.

S-P & M-M Sirag wrote:

> Tibet was neutral during WWII. This is, of course, an=20 oversimplification.

> Tibet was mainly concerned with the rivalry between = British=20 India and China.

> It attempted to maintain neutrality between these two = powers=20 (which were

> allies during WW II).

>

> To provide some indication of the complexities = involved, I=20 will quote from

> the book, Himalayan Frontiers, by Dorothy Woodman = (Praeger,=20 1969):

>

> P. 192: In August 1932 Tibet was threatened on two = fronts;=20 Szechuan

> chieftain Wen-hui was in arms against Tibetan troops, = and the=20 Governor of

> Chinghai was proving recalcitrant. The Dalai Lama = appealed to=20 the Government

> of India to intervene in Nanking. Weir returned to = Lhasa, and=20 helped to

> bring about a cease-fire.

>

> P. 193: The Tibetan picture was completely transformed = by the=20 Dalai Lama's

> death on December 17, 1933. His policy of = non-alignment was=20 described

> unambiguously in his Political Testament, composed = only a few=20 months before

> his death.

> The Government of India is near to us and has a large = army.=20 The

> Government of China also has a large army. We should = therefore=20 maintain

> firm friendship with these two; both are powerful.

>

> p. 205: In 1941, Chiang Kai-shek ordered the building = of a=20 road from

> south-west Szechuan across south-east Tibet into Assam = via the=20 Lohit Valley.

> The British Government pointed out that they had = certain=20 commitments to

> Tibet whose permission must be obtained. Chiang = Kai-shek=20 proceeded

> nonetheless and sent a survey team to the Tibetan = border.=20 Tibetan troops

> turned it back. The British Government, now an ally of = China,=20 tried in vain

> to persuade Lhasa to break its neutrality. Finally,=20 Trans-Tibet Transport

> took supplies via Kalimpong or Gangtok and Lhasa and = did not=20 touch the Lohit

> Valley or any part of what is now N.E.F.A. [North East = Frontier of Assam].

>

> p. 206: The picture was changed again a few months = later when=20 Pearl Harbour

> brought the USA into the Asian scene. Their first aim = was to=20 get into

> Tibet. When the US Government failed to get permission = from=20 the Chinese

> authorities to enter the country, they found they must = approach Lhasa

> through the Government of India. Finally, in February = 1942,=20 under heavy

> British and American pressure, two U.S. army officers = were=20 allowed to enter

> Lhasa. The British Government presented the facts of = Tibetan=20 independence

> in a Note to the U.S. which was so "firmly wedded to = Chiang=20 Kai-shek" (the

> words are H.E. Richardson's) they were willing to play = his=20 game until, in

> 1943 he exposed his real aims by threatening to attack = Tibet=20 with American

> arms.

>

> On the issue of Thailand's alliance with Japan, the = story is=20 also complex. I

> will quote from The Simon and Schuster Encyclopedia of = World=20 War II, edited

> by Thomas Parrish, Brig. Gen. S.L.A. Marshall, chief=20 consultant, 1978 (p.

> 627):

>

> THAILAND, Japanese troops landed on the southeast = coast of=20 Thailand

> (Siam), on December 8, 1941, requesting permission = --virtually=20 an

> ultimatum--to use Thai soil in their advances on Burma = and=20 Malaya. The Thai

> Prime Minister, who was sympathetic to the Japanese, = addeded=20 to the demand,

> and the two countries entered into an uneasy alliance. = Officially,

> therefore, Thailand came into the war on the side of = the Axis,=20 but its

> ambassador to the United States, Seni Promoj, refused = to=20 deliver the

> declaration of war to the U.S. Government. During the = war a=20 strong,

> well-led underground movement maintained close contact = with=20 the Allies. A

> general distaste for the Japanese presence by most of = the Thai=20 people, and

> cooperation with the Allies by many Thai government = officials,=20 fostered an

> American view that Thailand was not an enemy but a = "country to=20 be liberated

> from the enenemy." Thailand was therefore not dealt = with as an=20 opponent

> after World War II.

>

> All for now.

>

> Saul-Paul 25 September 2000

>

> ----------

> >From: "C. Ford" <cynthia@capsf.org>

> >To: "S-P & M-M Sirag " = <sirag@pond.net>

> >Cc: MagickMirr@aol.com, sarfatti@well.com

> >Subject: Re: Dalai Lama?

> >Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000, 6:19 PM

> >

>

> > You guys, who was Tibet allied with in WWII? I = just read=20 that Thailand was

> > allied with Japan.

> > Also---what is the address of the Stardrive = group? I want=20 to send you

> > physicists a copy of Eugenia's fluidice article = on disc=20 when it arrives.

> > The entire Anna and the King story appears to = almost=20 entirely

> > apocryphal at least in terms of its drama, = according to a=20 feminist review.

> > That's how I got wondering about Thailand and = found the=20 Japan alliance

> > reference.

> > Thanks, Cynthia

> >

> >

> > At 11:46 PM 7/19/2000 -0700, you wrote:

> >>On the Dalai Lama, some dates may clarify the=20 history.

> >>

> >>The 13th Dalai Lama lived from 1875-1933.

> >>

> >>The (present) 14th Dalai Lama was born in = 1935. He was=20 recognized in 1939,

> >>and enthroned in 1940.

> >>

> >>The Chinese took over control of Tibet in = 1951, and=20 the Dalai Lama fled to

> >>India in 1959.

> >>

> >>If the Dalai Lama had a Nazi tutor, it could = only have=20 been while the

> >>British were in Lhasa.

> >>

> >>In greater detail:

> >>

> >>Ever since the 1903 political-military = expedition to=20 Lhasa (led by Col.

> >>Francis Younghusband), British influence = remained very=20 strong.

> >>

> >>The Chinese attempt to control Tibet was = interrupted=20 by the 1911 overthrow

> >>of the Manchu dynasty in China by the = revolution led=20 by Sun Yat Sen.

> >>

> >>Thus in 1911, Tibet declared itself a republic = and=20 sought British protection

> >>from China. This led to treaties between Tibet = and UK,=20 with China declining

> >>to participate. From 1913 to 1935 this = exclusion of=20 Chinese influence held

> >>sway in Tibet.

> >>

> >> Quoting from Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th = Ed., 1977=20 (Vol. 18, p. 382):

> >>

> >> In 1935 the Tibetans, weakened by the death = of the=20 resolute 13th Dalai

> >>Lama, admitted a Chinese "condolence mission." = Once at=20 Lhasa, it

> >>established a small office and sought to = arrange the=20 return, under Chinese

> >>protection, of the sixth Panchen Lama, who had = left=20 Tibet in 1923 after

> >>disagreements with the Dalai Lama. The British = government sent Sir Basil

> >>Gould, political officer in Sikkim, to observe = that=20 development, which

> >>contravened their agreements with Tibet. After = his=20 departure in 1937, a

> >>small temporary British mission remained at = Lhasa. In=20 1947 it was taken

> >>over by the new government of India, together = with its=20 predecessor's rights

> >>and responsibilities toward Tibet.

> >>

> >> [end of quote from EB]

> >>

> >>It would appear that the early years of the = Dalai Lama=20 (1939-1945), from the

> >>age of 4 to 10, he was in a Lhasa under = British=20 influence.

> >>

> >>All for now.

> >>

> >>Saul-Paul

> >>

> >>----------

> >>>From: Jack Sarfatti = <sarfatti@well.com>

> >>>To: "C. Ford" = <cynthia@capsf.org>

> >>>Subject: Re: Dalai Lama?

> >>>Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000, 5:21 PM

> >>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>> "C. Ford" wrote:

> >>>

> >>>> Farley, this is a Dave Emory tape = blurb. Is=20 this reference true? That

> > an SS

> >>>> officer tutored the Dalai Lama? Do = you know?=20 Was this prior to or after

> >>>> Tony Poe brought the DL out of Tibet? = Thanks,=20 Cynthia

> >>>

> >>> [Jack Sarfatti]

> >>> I have heard these stories before. = Sources not=20 reliable however as I

> > recall.

> >>> You did see film "Seven Years in Tibet" = true=20 story about that German fellow

> >>who

> >>> tutored him. I forget the years. That may = be the=20 origin of the story.

> > Any one

> >>> know for sure? These stories, popular = inthe 70's,=20 were in flaky books like

> >>> "Morning of the Magicians" by Pauwels and = Begier,=20 maybe "Spear of

> > Destiny" by

> >>> Trevor Ravenscroft, "The Occult Third = Reich" by I=20 forget who.

> >>>

> >>> Gregory Corso, now dying in New York City = I hear=20 (prostate same as Marshall

> >>> Naify), told me in 1980 that my cousin, = David=20 Padwa, allegedly, said Corso,

> >>the

> >>> rich American in Ram Dass's "Be Here Now" = who=20 gives the Land Rover to the

> >>Guru,

> >>> "helped the CIA bring the Dalai Lama to = America".=20 So who is Tony Poe?

[Jack]

Correction David Padwa wrote to me on 11 Sept 2000 by = email

" i was principally involved in bringing a number of lamas = to the=20 u.s. but

not dalai lama (yeshe norbu). after 40 yrs of study i am = now an

ex-buddhist. like ex-catholics we have a nose for = humbug."

>

> > Corso is

> >>> a trickster, but why make up that story = out of=20 the blue? Harold Chipman's

> >>first

> >>> assignment as a young CIA officer in I = think=20 early 50's was to compile a

> >>> "Tibetan dictionary" so he told me in = 1985.

> >>>

> >>>>

> >>>> FTR-65 Contemporary Influences of = Third Reich=20 Occultism=97(Two 30-minute

> >>>> segments) $8.50

> >>>> These segments delineate influences = and=20 manifestations of Third Reich

> >>>> Occultism in the modern world. After=20 discussion

> >>>> of the SS officer who served as the = tutor of=20 the Dalai Lama, the program

> >>>> sets forth the profound interest of = the

> >>>> Ahnenerbe (the SS ancestral research = bureau)=20 in Tibet. Believing Tibet to

> >>>> be highly significant for = archeological=20 reasons,

> >>>> the SS sponsored a number of = expeditions=20 there in order to shed light on

> >>>> the development of the mythical = "Aryan=20 race."

> >>>> The broadcast also discusses "Colonia = Dignidad," a Nazi enclave in Chile,

> >>>> that has served as a prison and = torture=20 center

> >>>> for opponents of the regime of = Chilean=20 dictator Augusto Pinochet. This

> >>>> highly secretive institution has = served as a=20 safe

> >>>> haven for Nazi war criminals on the = run and=20 as an epicenter for some

> >>>> operations of the ODESSA, the = powerful=20 and

> >>>> deadly post-World War II SS = underground. The=20 enclave has also had dealings

> >>>> with some elements of U.S. = intelligence

> >>>> and served as a focal point for = "Operation=20 Condor," an assassination

> >>>> program jointly operated by Latin=20 American

> >>>> dictatorships. The focus of numerous = charges=20 of child molestation and mind

> >>>> control activities, the Colony = appears to

> >>>> have been heavily influenced by the = Nazi=20 pagan philosophy and religion.

> >>>> (See also FTR #=92s 6, 44, 64, 83, = 90.)

> >>>> (Recorded in June of 1997.)

[Jack]

I don't know how reliable the above quote is. What I do = know is=20 that Jan Brewer at

Esalen in 1976 told me and Saul-Paul, and I think Army = Intel Spook=20 George Koopman,

a very similar story about Oscar Ichazo who started Arica.=20 According to Brewer (not

a reliable source, now in prison I hear) Ichazo's father = was=20 Minister of Defence in

Bolivia (or Peru) in WWII with Occult Ahnenerbe. Koopman=20 investigated Arica after

that, perhaps because of Brewer's story. Koopman's death is = suspicious and Carol

Rosin who worked closely with him agrees. Brewer's story = stimulated=20 me to write the

radio play http://www.qedcorp.com/book/psi/hitweapon.html = for=20 Pacifica Radio that I

wrote in 1978.

>

> >>>

> >>> [Jack]

> >>> This sounds dubious could be more old KGB = disinfo. The Israelis would

> > know for

> >>> sure one way or the other.

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> --

> >>> "But the real glory of science is that we = can=20 find a way of thinking

> > such that

> >>> the law is evident. ... For a successful=20 technology, reality must take

> >>> precedence over public relations, for = Nature=20 cannot be fooled." Feynman

> >>> "I want to know God's thoughts ... the = rest are=20 details. ... Great Spirits

> >>have

> >>> always encountered violent opposition = from=20 mediocre minds. ... Quantum

> >>> mechanics is very impressive. But an = inner voice=20 tells me that it is not

> > yet

> >>> the real thing. The theory produces a = great deal=20 but hardly brings us

> > closer

> >>to

> >>> the secrets of the old one." Einstein

> >>> "It's the end of the line, and I feel a = paradigm=20 about to shatter. Let's

> > get

> >>to

> >>> the heart of the Grey Matter." Pamela=20 Stonebrooke

> >>> http://www.well.com/user/sarfatti/

>

--

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Subject: [SO] For posting

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 10:46:46 -0400

From: Peter Robbins <probbins@teamcpm.com>

To: (Recipient list suppressed)

News Flash From the Presidential Front: The Albany = Times-Union=20 Speaks Out

on Campaign Watch 2000

From the September 25, 2000 edition of the Albany (NY)=20 Times-Union,

appearing in the weekly column, "Capitol Confidential:"

News Flash From the Presidential Front:

"For more than 50 years now, one of the most serious news = stories=20 of modern

times has been regarded as little more than a joke by even = the best=20 minds

in the print and broadcast media.''

The pronouncement comes in a Campaign Watch 2000 letter to=20 newspaper

editors, lobbying them to get serious about an issue that = Peter=20 Robbins

laments has been shrugged off by the press: UFOs.

Robbins edits UFOCity.com, a Web site that "stands in the = vanguard=20 of the

effort to insist that the scientific and political = community=20 respond in a

professional manner to the information already gathered, = and to the=20 demands

of the public for honest investigation of the issue.''

The issue, Robbins says, isn't so much whether UFOs and the = alleged=20 crash

of an alien spaceship at Roswell, N.M., are for real, but = the=20 public's

right to know.

The letter includes three questions Robbins has for=20 presidential

candidates: would they offer amnesty for credible military = and=20 intelligence

witnesses; would they order the declassification of UFO = documents=20 (a

heavily censored CIA document is attached), and what is = their=20 position on

the public's right to access the government's secrets.

His thesis hasn't been entirely ignored: In 1998, when = Robbins=20 showed up at

an event on government secrecy and asked about = congressional=20 immunity for

those who would testify about UFOs, New York Sen. Daniel P. = Moynihan said

he would support the idea.

But as for presidential candidates, "you can pretty much = guess=20 how

successful this effort has been,'' Robbins writes.

Clips in the packet and on the site = (http://www.UFOCity.com) pretty=20 much

sum up the media's reaction as one of mild amusement.

A shame, says Robbins: "No one seems to want to cover a UFO = story=20 when

there's no angle to make fun of.''

With thanks to the Albany-Times Union:=20 http://www.timesunion.com/Wednesday.asp

-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor=20 -------------------------~-~>

eLerts

It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!

http://click.egroups.com/1/9068/9/_/570531/_/970010951/

=

---------------------------------------------------------------------_= ->

SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL, INC. (A Non-Profit = Organization)

"What could be stranger than the truth?"

Skywatch International Inc. and this list service are not=20 responsible for content or authenticity of posts.

Please read our LIST POSTING RULES located at this URL:

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To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a blank message to:=20 Skywatch_Discussion-unsubscribe@egroups.com

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Subject: Re: Contra Stapp on Gisin/Ontological = Principle

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 09:49:38 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: Stanley Klein <klein@spectacle.berkeley.edu>

CC: hpstapp@lbl.gov

Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.skeptic

Synopsis of the key points in the ongoing three way debate = below=20 between

Henry Stapp, Stan Klein and myself - all duly credentialed = Ph.D.=20 physicists

from major respectable univiersities who have known each = other=20 approximately

40 years. Stan and I were in graduate school together at = Brandeis=20 in early

60's. I first corresponded with Stapp in 1963 when I was at = Ford=20 Philco

Aeronutronics in Newport Beach, CA with Fred Cummings and I = came=20 across

Stapp's paper on axiomatic S-matrix theory that interested = me. He=20 probably

does not remember that. This was when I also first met = Feynman at=20 Cal Tech

and drove him around Sunset Strip in my Jaguar XK 150 black = convertible with

white leather interior, knock-off wire wheels, top down, = from=20 Hollywood

Sports Cars, whistling at the fabulous girls who whistled = back!=20 This is a

scene for a Woody Allen movie of nostalgia. :-)

1. Copenhagen "reality psychosis" (Rebecca Goldstein's new = novel=20 "The

Properties of Light")

2. Can classical local Lorentz invariance of SR and = classical local=20 Diff(4)

gauge symmetry of GR be consistently carried over into the = quantum=20 regime

with strong nonlocal entanglements among the detection = events? That=20 is, are

local tensor (spinor) equations in 4D spacetime enough for = the=20 complete

description of quantum and post-quantum phenomena?

3. What is the nature of physical explantion? The role of = formal=20 and

informal language in "What is a theory anyway?"

4. Is physics an experimental subject? Or, is it a religion = in=20 which

fundamental dogmas can no longer be legitimately questioned = and put=20 to

experimental testing?

Stanley Klein wrote:

> [Jack-prev]

> >Suppose

> >Stapp is right about the Hubble flow PF. That is, = the=20 universe has a

> >frame of absolute rest and all velocities are to = be=20 referred to it. One

> >still uses special relativity locally. So our = Galaxy is=20 moving at u =3D 371

>

> >km/sec relative to the Hubble PF "cosmological = rest=20 frame".

> >

> >u/c =3D 10^-3

> >

> >(v/c)^2 =3D 10^-6

> >

> >1/(1 - (v/c)^2)^1/2 ~ 1 + (1/2)10^-6

> >

> >Compton wavelength h/mc + 10^-11 cm, Compton = frequency is=20 then 3x10^21

> >Hz., so 10^-6 of that is 10^15 Hz and 10^-8 of = that is=20 10^13 Hz. These

> >motional effects should not be hard to measure if = they are=20 there. A

> >careful analysis of atomic spectra plotted against = time of=20 observation

> >should reveal such effects rather easily if anyone = has=20 bothered to even

> >look?

> >

> [Stan]

> Wow, it looks like you still don't understand what = Henry and I=20 have

> been saying.

[Jack]

Stan, do you understand what I am saying? Do you think what = I am=20 suggesting

makes no operational sense? Physics is about experiments. I = am=20 suggesting

clear experiments to test what Stapp is really saying about = the=20 Hubble flow

PF with infinite real quantum collapse effective speed in = 3D space,=20 or

should be saying about this problem if he was making a = consistent=20 case,

which IMO he is not - there go those "counter-factuals" = again! :-)=20 (see

Vaidman "bomb dud" gedankenexperiment). That is, had Stapp = made the=20 correct

argument, which in fact he did not, it would have had the = definite=20 result I

describe below. :-)

> The Hubble preferred frame with a real collapse and = real

> ontology is based on quantum field theory.

[Jack]

You are absolutely wrong about that. Even Gisin says of = quantum=20 field theory

" from an orthodox standpoint these problems have been = solved ...=20 recall

that in its orthodox interpretation, QM deals only with=20 probabilities, while

the state vector and its evolution are not endowed with=20 reality."

So your above statement is in clear obvious contradiction = to=20 Gisin's. Indeed

Stapp also says that the orthodox view is pragmatic with no = theory=20 of

reality at all - no ontology.

I looked at Tomonaga's 1947 paper again and there is = nothing at all=20 in it

about "a real collapse and real ontology". Tomonaga's paper = is=20 consistent

with Gisin's description "two observers, each using quantum = prescriptions,

predict the same final probabilities". This is why = Heisenberg could=20 say that

quantum waves are about our knowledge. This is pure = positivism with=20 a denial

of the right to ask for an ontological realiy theory of = what is=20 really out

there at the quantum level. This is the "reality psychosis" = in=20 Rebecca

Goldstein's "The Properties of Light". Furthermore = Tomonaga's=20 theory posits

special relativity as a global theory of the universe i.e. = flat=20 space-time

everywhere. You cannot take it as being compatible with the = Hubble=20 preferred

frame. One can only say that TS theory works in the local = tangent=20 space of

the curved manifold of GR. You are only justified in saying = that=20 passive

onlookers of actual happenings (meter readings of = measurements of=20 actual

detectors), using classical observation methods like = telescopes, or=20 radio

communication with the actual detector communication = system, will=20 agree as

to what the meter reading output of the detectors read. = This is the=20 passive

fundamental ontological principle. Now in classical global=20 special

relativity and also in the Diff(4) gauge freedom of = classical 1915=20 GR, one

can get away with blurring the distinction between the = passive=20 ontological

principle and active participation in the measuring of = actual=20 events with

real quantum level detectors. In particular, for passive=20 observations, of

two nearby events E1 and E2, different local Lorentz = observers, who=20 are

momentarily coincident with each other, but in = instantaneous=20 relative motion

to each other can make non-invasive classical observations = on the=20 same two

happenings at E1 and E2. The situation changes dramatically = at the=20 single

quantum level. You cannot have more than one of the above = local=20 inertial

Lorentz observers measure, for example, the position of the = same=20 single

electron at the same time and place in the sense of the=20 Heisenberg

microscope the way they can do classically! The main = conclusion=20 here is that

if we admit a PF, in particular the Hubble flow that = Narlikar in=20 his text

book "Cosmology" (Cambridge) calls the "cosmological rest = frame"=20 p.92, for

quantum measurement theory in the non-orthodox = non-positivistic=20 ontological

collapse picture Stapp suggests, which is not pragmatic = positivist=20 Tomonaga

theory aptly summarized by Gisin above, then, does the real = collapse speed

obey special relativity or not in the local tangent = space?

Stan you seem to be naive about the nature of physical = theories.=20 You seem to

think that the entire theory is in the formal language, the = pure=20 mathematics

and that the informal language, the intuitive = interpretation, the=20 ordinary

language in which we express our understanding of the = meaning of=20 the theory

is not legitimate. This is a kind of conceptual = know-nothing=20 positivism that

goes with the Copenhagen reality psychosis. Indeed, I never = understood your

arguments based upon the arbitrariness of the "vN cut", = which seems=20 to be a

pinnacle of specious reasoning elevated to a new kind of=20 philosophical

principle of covariance.

In our particular problem here, the bottom line is that we = have no=20 right to

assume that the results of quantum measurements are = independent of=20 the speed

of the detector (AKA measuring apparatus) relative to the=20 "cosmological rest

frame" of the Hubble flow. That is, we have no right to = assume=20 apriori, as

one can assume in Tomonaga theory based on the assumption = of global=20 SR, that

the set {j} different local Lorentz observers j =3D 1... N = , each=20 with

velocity u(j) relative to the Hubble flow, momentarily = coincident=20 with a

definite happening event S, each equipped with their own = detector=20 systems

D1(j) and D2(j) making measurements on the ensemble of = photon pairs=20 [1(j),

2(j)] emanating from source event S (over a small enough = piece of=20 the world

line of the source), each making their own unique = individual=20 sub-ensemble

sets of pair of measurements (E1(j) E2(j)) at different = moments,=20 all within

a small neighborhood of S in which curvature (and = anholonomic=20 torsion)

distortions are small, will show the same answers to the = common=20 question:

"Do the EPR correlations disappear?"

They will show the same answer NO in the Tomonaga theory. = We all=20 agree with

that. But that theory says nothing about reality, about = what=20 actually

happens in detail, it has no room for a real infinite speed = of=20 collapse in

the Hubble PF.

In contrast, assuming infinite speed of real collapse in = the Hubble=20 PF some

observers j will see the EPR correlations disappear others = will=20 not. There

will be a minimum critical speed above which the EPR = correlations=20 disappear

for each of the sub-ensembles {E1(j), E2(j)}. That is, the = absolute=20 speed

u(j) of the detectors D1(j) D2(j) make a physical = difference as to=20 what

those detectors detect if there is an objectively real = instant=20 collapse in

the Hubble PF that consistently obeys SR locally.

[Stan]

> It IS quantum field theory

> as seen in a particular frame. but you are starting to = make

> predictions of of effects on atomic spectra that can = be used=20 to

> measure the velocity relative to preferred frame, = something=20 like the

> Michaelson-Morley experiments. Jack, that doesn't work = because=20 of

> relativistic invariance of QFT. The = Feynman-Tomonaga-Schwinger=20 QFT

> guarantees that, even when written in the Hubble PF = with=20 real

> collapse.

[Jack]

Stan, you are backing yourself into a very embarassing = corner. You=20 are

saying it is illegitimate for me to question the = positivistic=20 orthodoxy and

to come up with new experiments to test it! You are = refusing to=20 look into my

telescope like the Cardinals with Galileo. Orthodox QM is a = religion with

you. Indeed, I am not surprised because this is what the=20 unreality

psychosis leads to, a closed mind not able to get out of = the closed=20 loop of

the cave, the prison it has willingly chained itself to. = Bohr has=20 put your

Bohm point Hidden Variable into a very deep attractor basin = you=20 cannot think

your way out of in spite of my Darwinian external pressures = on=20 you.

> [Stan]

> Just keep remembering that Henry's Hubble PF theory = gives all=20 the

> identical predictions as standard QFT (just like = standard=20 Bohm

> theory).

>

>

[Jack]

Stan what you say here is like brainwashing in Orwell's = 1984, it is=20 not

science, it is religion like Maharishi giving one a Mantra = to=20 repeat to

block out the annoying disquiet of critical reason = questioning=20 sacred

taboos. You are like the Catholic Priest telling me to say = 100 Hail=20 Mary's

etc. :-) You have, perhaps, been going to too many New Age=20 Consciousness

meetings in Berserkly and Babylon by the Bay, too many of = Nick=20 Herbert's

poetry raves! :-) In fact I have shown that what you just = said is=20 not true.

You keep sticking your head in the sand like an ostrich. In = any=20 case, I have

suggested an experimental inquiry of possibly fundamental=20 importance that

should be done if it has not already been done. The data is = probably already

collected and it is simply a matter for statistical = analysis by

experimentalists and statisticians more competent than = myself in=20 such

matters.

 

--

CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

http://stardrive.org

 

Subject: [Fwd: Re: God & ET -- Jolting us awake]

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 10:37:13 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: lensman@stardrive.org

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: Re: God & ET -- Jolting us awake

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 10:36:31 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: schwann <schwann@webtrance.co.za>

schwann wrote:

> At 12:10 PM 9/26/00 -0400, Dan Smith wrote:

> >Sarfatti & Co are proposing a 'Super-Manhattan = Project' to reenact the

> >Battle of Brittain in Near Earth Orbit. Fry those = little=20 buggers!!!

> >

> >I take this opportunity to demur.

>

> I agree. We taking chances with this type of = 'militarized'=20 attitude. I'd

> suggest that we make some allies out there, and IMHO,=20 'Spitfire Squadrons'

> aint it. Maybe they like our art? Or maybe they're = after all=20 our Julia

> Roberts clones? If you guys think we can just 'leap = into the=20 fray' against

> an unseen and unknown enemy you are badly mistaken. In = this=20 regard, an old

> Chinese proverb springs to mind:

>

> "Keep your friends close, your enemies even = closer"

I wish you could think more clearly and precisely on this. = I am=20 NOT

advocating

a stupid knee-jerk FIRST STRIKE policy. I am making the = obvious=20 point

that it

is prudent for us to make every attempt to achieve = technological=20 parity

with ET

ASAP - even if we fail, we have no choice if we do not wish = to=20 remain in

colonial status. We need to be able to negotiate with ET = from=20 some

measure of

military strength. Right now we are the 90 lb Weakling = facing the=20 Bully

On The

Beach from the Universe Next Door. It's time for Charles = Atlas=20 Beefing

Up not

for Atlas Shrugged.

>

>

> In our case, we don't even know who our friends are, = so we=20 better find this

> out before getting ourselves shot up. I suspect that = even ONE=20 capital ship

> in orbit could shut us down.

>

> just my 2c...

>

> schwann

--

CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

http://stardrive.org

Subject: Re: Relativistic EPR-Bell Experiments

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 11:49:56 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: hpstapp@lbl.gov

CC: Barry Carter <bcarter@igc.org>, Robert Neil Boyd=20 <rnboyd@mip.net>,

Evan Harris Walker <wcri@erols.com>, = "Puthoff@aol.com"=20 <Puthoff@aol.com>,

Saul-Paul Sirag <sirag@pond.net>, "tsmith@innerx.net" = <tsmith@innerx.net>,

Vladimir Poponin <vladimir@isso.org>,

"Dr. Eric W. Davis" <ericdavis@nidsci.org>, "Gary G. = Ford"=20 <Swimp@home.com>,

Creon Levit <creon@isso.org>,

"dewatson@sunflower.com" = <dewatson@sunflower.com>,

Gary E Schwartz <gschwart@U.Arizona.EDU>,

Gary Osborn <Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk>,

"JagdishM@aol.com" <JagdishM@aol.com>,

Joe Firmage <jfirmage@intendchange.com>,

L Dunning = <transparent_metals_manufacturing@hotmail.com>,

"lensman@stardrive.org" <lensman@stardrive.org>,

"pandolfi@zzapp.org" <pandolfi@zzapp.org>,

"urigeller@compuserve.com" = <urigeller@compuserve.com>,

Stan Klein <klein@spectacle.berkeley.edu>

Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.skeptic

PS

stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov wrote:

>

> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:16:54 -0700 (PDT)

> From: stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov

> Reply-To: hpstapp@lbl.gov

> To: Dr. Jack Sarfatti <sarfatti@well.com>

> Subject: Re: Relativistic EPR-Bell Experiments

>

> Dear Jack,

>

> Your latest communication is very helpful:

> it pin-points where your understanding of my

> theory differs from my theory as I define and

> understand it.

>

> The point is this: When I refer to frame

> independence the frame that I am referring

> to is the frame that is used to define the

> surfaces along which the state of the universe

> Psi(t) at time t is defined.

[Jack]

What does "define" mean here operationally? I see several=20 physically

relevant "frames" for comparison of alternative reality=20 theories.

1. The CMB frame of Gisin et-al i.e. the Hubble flow. This = is a=20 global frame

in which the spacelike surfaces are a special subset of the = 3-Geometries

i.e. the "points" of Wheeler-Super Space (multiverses) in = which the=20 CMB is

maximally isotropic.

2. The local G-frames of Gisin et-al i.e. the rest frames = of the=20 actual

detectors D. These are essentially LIFs (local Lorentz = inertial=20 frames) in

the tangent bundle. G-frames have velocity u relative to = the CMB=20 global

frame allowed in GR but not allowed in global SR.

The operational meaning of a PF theory is that if you posit = a real=20 infinite

velocity of quantum measurement collapse in an ontic vN = type mode=20 in the CMB

frame -- now a PF, then the uniform velocity u of the = detector D=20 makes a

real physical difference in what that detector detects. = Note,=20 the

absolutely moving observer in the G-frame measures its = velocity=20 relative to

the CMB frame directly from the red-blue shift anisotropy = along his=20 timelike

worldline. This is not what Tomonaga theory predicts of = course.=20 However,

this is implied by your postulates added to Tomonaga theory = which=20 change it

to a new theory. Your new added postulates have testable=20 consequences in

atomic spectroscopy that can be carried out.

> In the von Neumann-

> Wigner measurement theory that I use the state

> Psi(t) undergoes abrupt changes (called collapse

> or reductions) at certain instants of time. The

> von Neumann theory was formulated in non-

> relativistic terms, so the question arises:

> How do we make it relativistic? My answer is

> to use Tomonaga-Schwinger (T-S) theory, and to

> pick from all of the infinitude of spacelike

> surfaces `sigma' that T-S allow some particular

> ones, namely the constant time surfaces t=3Dconst.

> in the rest frame of the cosmic background

> radiation, as the surfaces which are to be

> identified with the constant time surfaces

> of vN/W quantum theory (of measurements),

> and hence the surfaces on which the instantaneous

> collapses occur. Thus the Psi(t) of vN/W gets

> equated to the Psi(sigma(t)) of T-S, where the

> surface sigma(t) is the special T-S surface

> that is the time=3Dt surface in the cosmic

> rest frame (rest frame of cosmic black-body

> radiation).

[Jack]

For the record, I am not against this idea that Bohm also = has a=20 version of

in his theory, although current data (Gisin + COBE) seems = to=20 falsify it.

What I am saying is that you have not thought through the=20 experimental

implications of what you just posited. Bottom line, you are = no=20 longer

apriori justified in assuming that the uniform velocity u = of a=20 detector D

relative to the Hubble flow has no influence on the local = response=20 pattern

of that detector in quantum measurements on nonlocally = entangled=20 systems.

This assumption must be, and can be, tested = experimentally.

> This is for special relativity,

> which I believe should be OK for

> understanding the mind-brain interaction:

> my aim here is to elevate vN/W quantum theory

> to relativistic status by tieing it to T-S

> theory, which is formulated for special

> relativity.]

[Jack]

Special relativity is fine locally in the tangent space, = good=20 enough here. I

use it. I say you are not using it consistently in this = problem. If=20 the

velocity v' of real quantum collapse is infinite connecting = two=20 detectors D1

and D2 each at rest in the Hubble PF, then the speed of = real=20 quantum

collapse v must be finite =3D c^2/u > c in the G-frame = connecting=20 the two

different detectors D1' and D2' both at rest in the G-frame = (I=20 ignore

relative motion between them for simplicity).

>

> This specification introduces a huge

> dependence of the theory, at the

> level of the underlying reality, on this

> special choice of coordinate frame.

> But the T-S theory, coupled with vN

> measurement theory, shows that the predictions

> of the theory about observations in fact

> do not depend upon which frame was used to

> define the surfaces sigma(t) that define

> the state of the universe at time t: all

> choices give the same predictions about

> observation, and hence the same prediction

> about whether or not the EPR correlation

> is present or not.

[Jack]

This is where you are very obscure and ambiguous. I am = defining=20 everything

clearly in terms of what local detectors on timelike world = lines=20 detect. I

say the PF idea means that timelike normals to different = spacelike=20 surface

foliations will not actively measure equivalent patterns of = nonlocal quantum

entanglement phenomena. You are not justified in jumping to = the=20 conclusion

that they detect equivalent patterns. Some can see the EPR=20 correlations

disappear others not. They each are making their = measurements on=20 different

sub-ensembles that are no longer equivalent under the joint = PF=20 infinite real

collapse speed postulates you append to Tomonaga = theory.

> The prediction that

> EPR correlations will be present is

> independent of this choice of frame.

[Jack]

I agree pure Tomonaga theory says that. However, pure = Tomonaga=20 theory is not

a theory of reality of the psi with real collapse that has = a=20 "speed", and it

is not a theory that allows any PF, and in particular the = Hubble=20 flow. Again

we keep spinning our wheels here. IMO you have not been = doing pure=20 Tomonaga

theory and are, therfore, not justified in appealing to it = as part=20 of your

argument.

>

> Of course, the picture of what is "really

> happening" would be very different for

> different choices of the frame that

> defines the instants t=3Dconst along which

> the collapses occur, but the prediction

> about the EPR correlation does not depend

> on that choice.

[Jack]

Let us distinguish what this or that theory says and what = Nature=20 really does

say! Do the experiments I suggest and see what happens. You = may be=20 right,

you may be wrong. We do not really know yet. But if you are = right=20 that the

state of uniform motion of the detectors making the EPR=20 correlations have no

effect on what they detect, then you cannot, as a matter of = logic,

consistently use your ideas of PF and instant collapse in = the=20 Hubble frame.

> Similarly, the prediction

> that the EPR correlation will be present

> does not depend on the frame in which

> the experiment is done:

[Jack]

This is the crucial idea that needs to be tested directly=20 experimentally.

> the same EPR

> correlation will be present in a space

> ship that is at rest in the frame in which

> the t=3Dconst surfaces are defined as in

> a space ship that is moving rapidly in

> that frame [insofar as there is no

> significant interaction with things

> outside the spaceship.]

[Jack]

This needs to be tested and can be. Maybe, maybe not.

>

>

> These are the key results of T-S QED,

> combined, of course, with vN theory of

> measurement.

[Jack]

Not IMO. Your logic is not sound in coming to that = conclusion IMO.=20 However,

we cannot settle this argument obviously. All we can do is = do=20 the

experiments.

>

>

> As I mentioned in earlier replies, what

> is `really happening' will depend on which

> experiment is performed first in the frame

> that defines the instantaneous states of

> the universe, but the predictions pertaining

> to observations will not.

[Jack]

This is another issue that you have not justified. You have = simply=20 posited

retarded causality. That is not good enough. You have not=20 eliminated the

Feynman zig-zag of Costa de Beauregard and John Cramer from = Wheeler-Feynman.

You have not proved that the infinite speed of collapse is = right=20 and Feynman

zig-zag is wrong. In the Feynman zig-zag the EPR = correlations=20 never

disappear at all! There is no real superluminal collapse = speed in=20 the

Feynman zig-zag of backward causation. Indeed, Gisin's data = really=20 disproves

your vN collapse theory and suggests the Feynman zig-zag=20 explanation of

backward causation as the better explanation. The Bohm = theory can=20 be made

consistent with the Feynman zig-zag of backward causation = and=20 with

Aharonov's two state vector (retarded history and advanced = destiny=20 vectors)

theory by replacing R(spacelike) with=20 (R(history)R(destiny)^1/2!

>

>

> The essential point, here, is that I am

> using the non-dependence of the prediction

> about observations upon `real' differences,

> such as differences in the velocities of two

> spaceships: the T-S-vN theory shows that the

> the prediction about the EPR correlation

> WILL BE INDEPENDENT OF THAT REAL DIFFERENCE!

> The predictions are `relativistically

> invariant' in this non trivial sense.

>

> I am NOT talking about the trivial non-dependence

> upon how fast `observers' are moving. This

> non dependence upon the velocity of the

> observer of whether a geiger counter

> will be seen to click or not is taken for

> granted. It is NOT this trivial nondependence

> that T-S-vN theory assures. This theory

> assure the nontrivail nondependences. That is

> why I use it.

>

> Your messages of Sept 23 make it clear that

> you were under the impression that the

> nondependence that I was talking about was

> of the trivial kind generated by what you

> call

>

> > above fundamental metaphysical ontological = principle.

>

> But I was referring to the nontrivial results that = are

> generated by T-S-vN/W quantum theory. This = difference

> between the nontrivial results that I was using and = the

> trivial result that you believed that I was using

> explains all the difficulties that you were = pointing

> out in your messages of Sept 23.

>

> Best regards,

>

> Henry

>

> P.S Please forward to the two sci forums.--

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Subject: Re: Relativistic EPR-Bell Experiments

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 12:21:03 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: hpstapp@lbl.gov, Barry Carter = <bcarter@igc.org>,

Robert Neil Boyd <rnboyd@mip.net>, Evan Harris Walker = <wcri@erols.com>,

"Puthoff@aol.com" <Puthoff@aol.com>, Saul-Paul Sirag=20 <sirag@pond.net>,

"tsmith@innerx.net" <tsmith@innerx.net>, Vladimir = Poponin=20 <vladimir@isso.org>,

"Dr. Eric W. Davis" <ericdavis@nidsci.org>, "Gary G. = Ford"=20 <Swimp@home.com>,

Creon Levit <creon@isso.org>,

"dewatson@sunflower.com" = <dewatson@sunflower.com>,

Gary E Schwartz <gschwart@U.Arizona.EDU>,

Gary Osborn <Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk>,

"JagdishM@aol.com" <JagdishM@aol.com>,

Joe Firmage <jfirmage@intendchange.com>,

L Dunning = <transparent_metals_manufacturing@hotmail.com>,

"lensman@stardrive.org" <lensman@stardrive.org>,

"pandolfi@zzapp.org" <pandolfi@zzapp.org>,

"urigeller@compuserve.com" = <urigeller@compuserve.com>,

Stan Klein <klein@spectacle.berkeley.edu>

Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.skeptic

PPS

"

>

> stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov wrote:

>

>>

>

>>

>> I am NOT talking about the trivial = non-dependence

>> upon how fast `observers' are moving. This

>> non dependence upon the velocity of the

>> observer of whether a geiger counter

>> will be seen to click or not is taken for

>> granted.

>

[Jack]

This is the key place where we differ. You take that for = granted. I=20 do

not. This is exactly what must be tested anew. Previous=20 measurements

were not good enough and did not look for the right = stuff.

Further, as a point of logic, re: fundamental inconsistency = of=20 your

argument: You cannot argue for a PF with a real = superluminal speed=20 of

collapse of a real psi field that is, in particular = infinite in=20 the

Hubble flow, use SR, and also "take for granted" the " non=20 dependence

upon the velocity of the observer of whether a geiger = counter will=20 be

seen to click or not "

It is very dangerous to take any seemingly familiar obvious = idea=20 of

orthodox theory "for granted" in the exploration of the = limits=20 of

orthodoxy in the light of experimental anomalies like Bo=20 Lehnert's

reports of electromagnetic anomalies, similar reports from=20 France

(Vigier & Co on Faraday homopolar discs, Ampere = longitudinal=20 forces and

the like.) and Russia (Akimov, Shipov, Nikolaev et-al),=20 Saul-Paul

Sirag's report on the observed Blackett Effect (including=20 seemingly

secret Messerschmidt work in Munich now DB Aerospace by = UFO

researchers), and most importantly the UFO reports from = both=20 the

Laurance Rockefeller meeting and the French military = intelligence=20 COMETA

report.

CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

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Subject: Re: God & ET -- Jolting us awake

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:44:54 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: Dan Smith <dansmith@clark.net>

CC: CloudRider@aol.com, gbekkum@mediaone.net,=20 schwann@webtrance.co.za,

galactic_diva@mail.telis.net, thomsona@flash.net,=20 amit@noetic.org,

pandolfi@zzapp.org, Aparker9@utk.edu, = choasnet@yahoo.com,

wil247@sacoriver.net, phylegyas@hotmail.com, = d1494@wt.net,

dewatson@sunflower.com, MagickMirr@aol.com, = wcri@erols.com,

gschwart@u.arizona.edu, Swimp@home.com,=20 Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk,

Puthoff@aol.com, stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov,=20 jfirmage@intendchange.com,

APOLLINAIR@aol.com, creon@isso.org, quanta@cruzio.com,=20 rnboyd@mip.net,

sirag@pond.net, tsmith@innerx.net, TOPPAN166@aol.com,=20 yokatta@oxy.edu,

brumac@compuserve.com, "Lawrence B. Crowell"=20 <lcrowell@swcp.com>,

David Lamprey <thelamprey@hotmail.com>, Jagdish Mann=20 <JagdishM@aol.com>,

"W. Hinckley Waitt" <info@taggarthouse.com>,

Scott Littleton <yokatta@oxy.edu>, Scott Jones=20 <sherlight@ktc.com>,

Saul-Paul Sirag <sirag@pond.net>, Sam Sternberg=20 <samster@istar.ca>,

Brother Blue <brotherblue93@hotmail.com>, Carol Rosin = <rosin@west.net>

Dan Smith wrote:

> Jack,

>

> We have been rudely awakened from our dogmatic = slumbers by we=20 know not what.

[Jack]

We know what more or less. Creatures from the universe next = door=20 through the

looking glass traversable wormhole across maybe 1 = millimeter or=20 less hyperspace

separation as in Aug 2000 Sci Am on "Unseen Dimensions of = the=20 Universe" (also

Jan 2000 Sci Am).. Combine that with Scott Littleton's = analysis,=20 Erik Davis's

"Techgnosis", Laurance Rockefeller & French=20 Military-Intelligence COMETA Report,

NIDS reports and similar sober reports by Maccabee, Colonel = Corso=20 et-al, my own

1951 and 1953 direct contacts with the connected 1973 = meetings with=20 O Regan,

Puthoff, Targ, Ed Mitchell et-al and the storyline

http://stardrive.org/Jack/contact.pdf (intro) is quite = clear,=20 coherent and

obvious.

>

>

> Whatever it is, we can very confidently assume that it = resides=20 much closer

> to the source of cosmic intelligence than do we.

Perhaps in some cases. Do not assume that there is only one = kind of=20 Visitor

through the looking glass.

>

>

> Let us then not be so distracted by the outer = trappings of=20 this phenomenon.

> We have more than ample evidence that this phenomenon = has the=20 capacity for a

> mind-boggling repetoire of shape-shifting and other=20 deceptions.

Yes.

>

>

> If we want to face these interlopers on a level = playing field=20 then let us

> not engage in interminable rounds of shadow boxing = with them.=20 Let us rather

> cut them off at their source. Let us hit them where it = hurts=20 which is right

> in their cosmic plexus -- their cosmic umbilicus.

Now you are going goofy again.

>

>

> We don't need to outfight them, just outwit them. They = are=20 actually a lot

> dumber than us, considered one on one. Their powers = come only=20 from their

> cosmic network. They are here mainly to demonstrate = that=20 network.

We want to cooperate with some of them, outwit some of them = as did=20 the wily

Ulysses with Cyclops - an obvious ET, as did my illustrious = ancestors Jack of

Beanstalk fame, Brere Rabbit and Bugs Bunny. :-)

>

>

> These powers are what we would think of as psychic = powers.

I have explained the fundamental physical nature of psychic = powers=20 as

post-quantum signal nonlocality in the physically real = mental field=20 in the

collective material configuration space of all the living = brains=20 that were, that

are and that are yet to come. Lest we forget who and what = we are=20 and why we are

here in this cosmic and divinely comic drama.

> We have those

> powers too, but we very seldom use them, and almost = never in a=20 coordinated

> fashion.

>

> With those powers they are able to engineer reality at = will.=20 They can

> levitate, walk through walls, appear and disappear in = a flash,=20 without any

> physical aids, just using their close, psychic = connection with=20 the Cosmic

> Source.

Listen Dan, I heard all of this before at the age of maybe = five=20 from my father

as we rowed in Prospect Park lake in the light of the = silvery moon=20 with the band

playing - an archetypal scene from a Wagnerian opera, = though seeing=20 it was WWII

or just after, they were not playing Wagner! :-) Can you = tell us=20 anything not

cliche? This is The Sarfatti Family Business you know. The = olive=20 oil and the

wine are just a front. :-)

>

>

> Don't be so distracted by the magic light show, Jack, = go to=20 the Source!!

Follow your own advice.

>

>

> This is what the intel community has been doing.

Oh c'mon Dan. Really. Get off it. Most of the Intel = community=20 haven't a clue

about what you are talking about. Their reality is several = levels=20 removed from

this. They need to read Erik Davis's Techgnosis to get in = the loop.=20 A small

rogue group inside it of course. Chip used to call it "The=20 Union".

> This is what

> 'unconventional collections' are all about. Just ask = Ron. What=20 do you

> suppose the secret successors to Grill Flame are = doing? They=20 are getting

> smart and, yes, getting even!!!

You are getting goofy again. The first order of business = for Grill=20 Flame, The

Union, MJ 12, whatever you want to call it, is to get hip = to the=20 real physics

required. The most dangerous thing that can happen is for = the=20 reality psychosis

of Copenhagen as seen in recent conferences with policy = wonks to be=20 considered

as the right stuff by these people. This has been the case = since=20 the 70's when I

was sidelined from the Esalen scene by Koopman and put on = ice at=20 the Caffe

Trieste in North Beach (see e.g. Another Eccentric Genius = in North=20 Beach, SF

Chronicle 1981 I think by Jerry Carroll, Buttoned Down = Bohemians in=20 STF

Chronicle Sunday Magazine, 1986, also Bohemia and Travels = in San=20 Francsico by

Herb Gold http://qedcorp.com/pcr/pcr/goldrev.html etc.)

--

CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

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Subject: Re: ASTRONAUT GORDON COOPER'S UFO FILMS

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:53:19 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: Kim Burrafato <lensman@stardrive.org>

Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.skeptic

Kim Burrafato wrote:

> In recently published memoirs "Leap of Faith: An = Astronaut's=20 Journey

> into the Unknown", by USAF Colonel L. Gordon Cooper = (Ret.)=20 recounts how

> he chased UFOs over Germany in his F-86. Following = this=20 experience,

> Cooper was very open minded about UFOs. He writes, "I = knew an=20 Air Force

> master sergeant assigned to a team that received an = emergency=20 call-out

> from Washington D.C., to the Pacific southwest (not = Roswell.)=20 He told

> me they reached a canyon and found a wreckage at the = site.=20 According to

> his friend -- and I had been around him enough to = consider him=20 a

> reliable guy -- a metallic disk-shaped object had = crashed, and=20 sitting

> atop the wreckage were two very human-looking fellows = in=20 flight suits,

> waving at them. They were hustled away, and the = sergeant never=20 found

> out who they were or what happened to them."

>

> As a captain stationed at Edwards Air Force Base, = Calif., on=20 May 3,

> 1957, he became aware that a metallic, saucer-shaped = craft had=20 landed

> (silently) sometime after 8:00 a.m. on base property. = He=20 alleges that

> the event was filmed by a startled technical film crew = on=20 assignment

> 50 yards away, the craft zooming out of sight when the = photographers

> tried to approach it for a better camera shot. Cooper = writes=20 that, upon

> learning of the incident, he telephoned appropriate = Pentagon=20 officials,

> who ordered him to have all the film developed (but = not=20 printed) and to

> ship it immediately to the Pentagon. He adds that, = before=20 complying, he

> chose to peek at some of the negatives, which = confirmed the=20 existence of

> the "saucer" as described to him by the film crew. = Cooper=20 notes that he

> heard nothing more about the film or the results of = any=20 investigation.

> Thanks to Dwight Connelly

>

> --

>

> ****************************************

> "Everything you know is wrong."

> Firesign Theater, 1971

> http://www.stardrive.org

> ****************************************

--

CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

http://stardrive.org

Subject: Re: God & ET -- Jolting us awake

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:23:07 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: Joe Firmage <jfirmage@intendchange.com>

CC: 'Dan Smith ' <dansmith@clark.net>,

"'CloudRider@aol.com '" <CloudRider@aol.com>,

"'gbekkum@mediaone.net '" <gbekkum@mediaone.net>,

"'schwann@webtrance.co.za '" = <schwann@webtrance.co.za>,

"'galactic_diva@mail.telis.net '"=20 <galactic_diva@mail.telis.net>,

"'thomsona@flash.net '" <thomsona@flash.net>,

"'amit@noetic.org '" <amit@noetic.org>,

"'pandolfi@zzapp.org '" <pandolfi@zzapp.org>,

"'Aparker9@utk.edu '" <Aparker9@utk.edu>,

"'choasnet@yahoo.com '" <choasnet@yahoo.com>,

"'wil247@sacoriver.net '" <wil247@sacoriver.net>,

"'phylegyas@hotmail.com '" = <phylegyas@hotmail.com>,

"'d1494@wt.net '" <d1494@wt.net>,

"'dewatson@sunflower.com '" = <dewatson@sunflower.com>,

"'MagickMirr@aol.com '" <MagickMirr@aol.com>,

"'wcri@erols.com '" <wcri@erols.com>,

"'gschwart@u.arizona.edu '" = <gschwart@u.arizona.edu>,

"'Swimp@home.com '" <Swimp@home.com>,

"'Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk '"=20 <Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk>,

"'Puthoff@aol.com '" <Puthoff@aol.com>,

"'stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov '" <stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov>,

"'APOLLINAIR@aol.com '" <APOLLINAIR@aol.com>,

"'creon@isso.org '" <creon@isso.org>,

"'quanta@cruzio.com '" <quanta@cruzio.com>,

"'rnboyd@mip.net '" <rnboyd@mip.net>, = "'sirag@pond.net '"=20 <sirag@pond.net>,

"'tsmith@innerx.net '" <tsmith@innerx.net>,

"'TOPPAN166@aol.com '" <TOPPAN166@aol.com>,

"'yokatta@oxy.edu '" <yokatta@oxy.edu>,

"'brumac@compuserve.com '" = <brumac@compuserve.com>,

"'Lawrence B. Crowell '" <lcrowell@swcp.com>,

'David Lamprey ' <thelamprey@hotmail.com>,

Pamela Stonebrooke = <galactic_diva@mail.telis.net>,

Kim Burrafato <lensman@stardrive.org>, Carol Rosin=20 <rosin@west.net>

Joe Firmage wrote:

> i think it is undoubtedly the case that a Universal=20 intelligence influences

> us, since we humans are beings too, with some ability = to=20 recognize a

> collective consciousness.

>

> since we are undoubtedly a young species, still just = recently=20 aware of our

> collective experience, i believe that leaping to = conclusions=20 of

> non-neautrality of its intent would be premature, = though my=20 reasoning says

> it seeks beneficience, since we exist. that conforms = with our=20 sense of hope.

Again I do not think we should assume only one kind of ET. = The data=20 on

abductions of unwilling people should give us pause. On the = other=20 hand my own

personal contact(s), like yours, were not harmful. So there = are=20 significant

differences in the data.

>

>

> i sense a cosmic paranoia in your writings, and = sometimes in=20 jack's, that

> does not resonate in any way with my intellectual = senses. i do=20 not in any

> sense believe that we should take a military posture = as the=20 intent or

> backbone of a venture into space.

I do not advocate any kind of agressive warlike first = strike=20 posture as Dan

exaggerates my position to be on this. What do you think of = Scott=20 Littleton's

assessment? I think it is basically balanced in contrast to = Dan's=20 and Dick's.

Since it is a fact that we are outclassed in terms of = military=20 hardware in

actual UFO encounters you can be sure that the main = interest of the=20 military

will be to achieve some kind of balance no matter how you=20 personally view it. I

agree that the dominant ET contact has not been hostile or = else we=20 would not be

here now to debate it. Again the key point is not to assume = there=20 is only one

kind of ET with one intention. One must be open to real = evidence.=20 The fly in the

ointment are the abductions even if later some of the = abductees=20 identify with

the aggressor like Patty Hearst with the SLA. The abductors = are=20 clearly not the

same ETs you and I seem to have experienced. I take John = Mack's=20 reports

seriously, though, perhaps not always the optimistic spin = he puts=20 on the data.

On the other hand, Jacobs may be too much the other way. = Pamela=20 Stonebrooke's

encounters seem to be mostly beneficent and they imply time = travel=20 is key to the

phenomenon.

>

>

> i seriously question that a sentient species must fear = becoming aware of its

> existence within galactic civilization(s).

I completely agree with that and have never suggested=20 otherwise.

> assuming that such exists, our

> transformation to that plateau, however many decades = or=20 centuries it takes

> (more likely an infinite evolutionary process), and=20 acknowledging that there

> will be *obvious* challenges, is more likely to be an = amazing=20 and beautiful

> multi-generational saga, a living history that can = *engage*=20 these challenges

> as the soaring missions of a new vision.

Let us hope that is how it will turn out. I think the = Pentagon DIA=20 and the CIA,

NSA et-al will take the position: hope for the best, but = prepare=20 for the the

worst. We should always act honorably and ethically of = course. That=20 is the

American Way - I mean the idea of what America should be = even if it=20 sometimes

falls short. America, like democracy, is the worst nation = on the=20 planet, except

for all the others. :-)

>

>

> of course, i've seen little of the kind of = institutional=20 engagement that

> would enable me to assess the depth and quality of = whatever=20 non-public

> institutional information exists, and therefore cannot = say=20 whether my own

> scientific assessment of humanity's circumstance is = consistent=20 with any of

> the government's many internal views.

I would bet that the government is closer to my, and Scott=20 Littleton's spin, on

how to respond to the UFO reality. It would be impossible = for the=20 Joint Chiefs

not to attempt to achieve technological parity with ET on = the=20 military hardware

level, indeed they would be violating their oaths if they = did not=20 try to. I

think this much of their policy is clear IF they have = recognized=20 the reality and

truth of reports of UFO intrusions into military areas, = inability=20 of

interceptors to deal with these craft etc. Any attempt by = us to=20 develop

propellantless propulsion hardware would immediately become = a=20 military issue

quite independent of our personal desires. That's reality = here I=20 think.

>

>

> i'm looking at the broader scientific picture, with = the=20 amazing sense, like

> all of you, of being an ordinary individual of our = remarkable=20 species,

> living on an unimaginably edenic planet. it's a = position of=20 the greatest

> possible balance i can think of.

>

> a challenging thing in these waters.

I completely agree we should not lose sight of the Big = Picture and=20 get lost in

paranoia and fear-based knee jerk aggresive response = patterns and=20 destructive

policies - that is not, however, how the professional = military=20 behaves under

civilian control in the White House. The key is for the = President=20 to be

adequately informed and let the constitutional process = really=20 work.

>

>

--

CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

http://stardrive.org

Subject: Re: God & ET -- Jolting us awake

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:41:35 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: Joe Firmage <jfirmage@intendchange.com>, 'Dan = Smith '=20 <dansmith@clark.net>,

"'CloudRider@aol.com '" <CloudRider@aol.com>,

"'gbekkum@mediaone.net '" <gbekkum@mediaone.net>,

"'schwann@webtrance.co.za '" = <schwann@webtrance.co.za>,

"'galactic_diva@mail.telis.net '"=20 <galactic_diva@mail.telis.net>,

"'thomsona@flash.net '" <thomsona@flash.net>,

"'amit@noetic.org '" <amit@noetic.org>,

"'pandolfi@zzapp.org '" <pandolfi@zzapp.org>,

"'Aparker9@utk.edu '" <Aparker9@utk.edu>,

"'choasnet@yahoo.com '" <choasnet@yahoo.com>,

"'wil247@sacoriver.net '" <wil247@sacoriver.net>,

"'phylegyas@hotmail.com '" = <phylegyas@hotmail.com>,

"'d1494@wt.net '" <d1494@wt.net>,

"'dewatson@sunflower.com '" = <dewatson@sunflower.com>,

"'MagickMirr@aol.com '" <MagickMirr@aol.com>,

"'wcri@erols.com '" <wcri@erols.com>,

"'gschwart@u.arizona.edu '" = <gschwart@u.arizona.edu>,

"'Swimp@home.com '" <Swimp@home.com>,

"'Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk '"=20 <Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk>,

"'Puthoff@aol.com '" <Puthoff@aol.com>,

"'stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov '" <stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov>,

"'APOLLINAIR@aol.com '" <APOLLINAIR@aol.com>,

"'creon@isso.org '" <creon@isso.org>,

"'quanta@cruzio.com '" <quanta@cruzio.com>,

"'rnboyd@mip.net '" <rnboyd@mip.net>, = "'sirag@pond.net '"=20 <sirag@pond.net>,

"'tsmith@innerx.net '" <tsmith@innerx.net>,

"'TOPPAN166@aol.com '" <TOPPAN166@aol.com>,

"'yokatta@oxy.edu '" <yokatta@oxy.edu>,

"'brumac@compuserve.com '" = <brumac@compuserve.com>,

"'Lawrence B. Crowell '" <lcrowell@swcp.com>,

'David Lamprey ' <thelamprey@hotmail.com>,

Kim Burrafato <lensman@stardrive.org>, Carol Rosin=20 <rosin@west.net>

PS

Plausible scenario:

ET is not invincible, they sometimes have accidents and = crash as in=20 Roswell 1947.

Hypothetical case: ET craft with advanced weapon capability = crashes=20 near Baghdad

with little material damage, ET crew stunned enough so that = quick-witted Republican

Guard Commandos drug them. Former Soviet physicists in = Saddam's=20 employ figure out

how they work due to advanced Soviet work in "torsion = fields".

Lesson of the exercise: the key military danger may not be = from ET=20 directly, but

from certain human groups who get their hands on the=20 technology.

Subject: Re: God & ET -- Jolting us awake

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:22:16 -0700 (PDT)

From: <yokatta@oxy.edu>

To: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

CC: Joe Firmage <jfirmage@intendchange.com>,

"'Dan Smith '" <dansmith@clark.net>,

"'CloudRider@aol.com '" <CloudRider@aol.com>,

"'gbekkum@mediaone.net '" <gbekkum@mediaone.net>,

"'schwann@webtrance.co.za '" = <schwann@webtrance.co.za>,

"'galactic_diva@mail.telis.net '"=20 <galactic_diva@mail.telis.net>,

"'thomsona@flash.net '" <thomsona@flash.net>,

"'amit@noetic.org '" <amit@noetic.org>,

"'pandolfi@zzapp.org '" <pandolfi@zzapp.org>,

"'Aparker9@utk.edu '" <Aparker9@utk.edu>,

"'choasnet@yahoo.com '" <choasnet@yahoo.com>,

"'wil247@sacoriver.net '" <wil247@sacoriver.net>,

"'phylegyas@hotmail.com '" = <phylegyas@hotmail.com>,

"'d1494@wt.net '" <d1494@wt.net>,

"'dewatson@sunflower.com '" = <dewatson@sunflower.com>,

"'MagickMirr@aol.com '" <MagickMirr@aol.com>,

"'wcri@erols.com '" <wcri@erols.com>,

"'gschwart@u.arizona.edu '" = <gschwart@u.arizona.edu>,

"'Swimp@home.com '" <Swimp@home.com>,

"'Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk '"=20 <Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk>,

"'Puthoff@aol.com '" <Puthoff@aol.com>,

"'stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov '" <stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov>,

"'APOLLINAIR@aol.com '" <APOLLINAIR@aol.com>,

"'creon@isso.org '" <creon@isso.org>,

"'quanta@cruzio.com '" <quanta@cruzio.com>,

"'rnboyd@mip.net '" <rnboyd@mip.net>,

"'sirag@pond.net '" <sirag@pond.net>,

"'tsmith@innerx.net '" <tsmith@innerx.net>,

"'TOPPAN166@aol.com '" <TOPPAN166@aol.com>,

"'brumac@compuserve.com '" = <brumac@compuserve.com>,

"'Lawrence B. Crowell '" <lcrowell@swcp.com>,

"'David Lamprey '" <thelamprey@hotmail.com>,

Kim Burrafato <lensman@stardrive.org>, Carol Rosin=20 <rosin@west.net>

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Dr. Jack Sarfatti wrote:

> PS

>

> Plausible scenario:

>

> ET is not invincible, they sometimes have accidents = and crash=20 as in Roswell 1947.

>

> Hypothetical case: ET craft with advanced weapon = capability=20 crashes near Baghdad

> with little material damage, ET crew stunned enough so = that=20 quick-witted Republican

> Guard Commandos drug them. Former Soviet physicists in = Saddam's employ figure out

> how they work due to advanced Soviet work in "torsion=20 fields".

>

> Lesson of the exercise: the key military danger may = not be=20 from ET directly, but

> from certain human groups who get their hands on the=20 technology.

Yes, you've got that last part right! It worries the hell = out of=20 me.

Sadam (or Milosevic, for that matter) with ET capabilities = is=20 enough to

scare a person out of several years' growth...

BTW, re Roswell, although I'm firmly convinced that = something

fundamentally significant happened there in July of 1947, a = few=20 days ago I

leaned that my new brother-in-law, Roy Franson, a former = Air=20 Force

sergeant, who was assigned to the 509th in January of 1949, = never=20 once

heard any scuttlebut about an alien crash, bodies, etc., = from guys=20 who'd

been there at the time. Indeed, he says he only heard about = it=20 years

later in the media. They really must have clamped the lid = down=20 tight!

You'd think less than two years later there would have been = at=20 least a few

rumors about it circulating in the ranks. Curious...

Cheers,

Scott

C. SCOTT LITTLETON "Any sufficiently evolved

Professor of Anthropology technology is = indistinguishable

Occidental College from magic."

Los Angeles, CA 90041 --Arthur C. Clarke

TEL (323) 259-2759

FAX (323) 341-4969 "I think we're property...."

http://www.oxy.edu/~yokatta/home.htm --Charles Fort

Subject: Re: God & ET -- Jolting us awake

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:49:54 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: Kim Burrafato <lensman@stardrive.org>

agreed

Kim Burrafato wrote:

> Jack,

>

> Good reality check for Firmage. He's a bit starry-eyed = naive=20 and overly optimistic

> when it comes to the reality of an ET presence that = abducts=20 people against their

> will, forcibly removes their genetic material, and = then=20 ostensibly creates human

> alien hybrids. I'm not at al convinced that this = process is=20 all that benign. I

> lean more towards Jacobs's view that we may getting = set up to=20 be "replaced." That

> cannot possibly be good, no matter what your overall = outlook=20 or philosophy is. Just

> look at the lessons of human history.

>

> "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" wrote:

>

> > Joe Firmage wrote:

> >

> > > i think it is undoubtedly the case that a = Universal=20 intelligence influences

> > > us, since we humans are beings too, with = some=20 ability to recognize a

> > > collective consciousness.

> > >

> > > since we are undoubtedly a young species, = still just=20 recently aware of our

> > > collective experience, i believe that = leaping to=20 conclusions of

> > > non-neautrality of its intent would be = premature,=20 though my reasoning says

> > > it seeks beneficience, since we exist. that = conforms=20 with our sense of hope.

> >

> > Again I do not think we should assume only one = kind of=20 ET. The data on

> > abductions of unwilling people should give us = pause. On=20 the other hand my own

> > personal contact(s), like yours, were not = harmful. So=20 there are significant

> > differences in the data.

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > i sense a cosmic paranoia in your writings, = and=20 sometimes in jack's, that

> > > does not resonate in any way with my = intellectual=20 senses. i do not in any

> > > sense believe that we should take a military = posture=20 as the intent or

> > > backbone of a venture into space.

> >

> > I do not advocate any kind of agressive warlike = first=20 strike posture as Dan

> > exaggerates my position to be on this. What do = you think=20 of Scott Littleton's

> > assessment? I think it is basically balanced in = contrast=20 to Dan's and Dick's.

> > Since it is a fact that we are outclassed in = terms of=20 military hardware in

> > actual UFO encounters you can be sure that the = main=20 interest of the military

> > will be to achieve some kind of balance no matter = how you=20 personally view it. I

> > agree that the dominant ET contact has not been = hostile=20 or else we would not be

> > here now to debate it. Again the key point is not = to=20 assume there is only one

> > kind of ET with one intention. One must be open = to real=20 evidence. The fly in the

> > ointment are the abductions even if later some of = the=20 abductees identify with

> > the aggressor like Patty Hearst with the SLA. The = abductors are clearly not the

> > same ETs you and I seem to have experienced. I = take John=20 Mack's reports

> > seriously, though, perhaps not always the = optimistic spin=20 he puts on the data.

> > On the other hand, Jacobs may be too much the = other way.=20 Pamela Stonebrooke's

> > encounters seem to be mostly beneficent and they = imply=20 time travel is key to the

> > phenomenon.

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > i seriously question that a sentient species = must=20 fear becoming aware of its

> > > existence within galactic = civilization(s).

> >

> > I completely agree with that and have never = suggested=20 otherwise.

> >

> > > assuming that such exists, our

> > > transformation to that plateau, however many = decades=20 or centuries it takes

> > > (more likely an infinite evolutionary = process), and=20 acknowledging that there

> > > will be *obvious* challenges, is more likely = to be=20 an amazing and beautiful

> > > multi-generational saga, a living history = that can=20 *engage* these challenges

> > > as the soaring missions of a new vision.

> >

> > Let us hope that is how it will turn out. I think = the=20 Pentagon DIA and the CIA,

> > NSA et-al will take the position: hope for the = best, but=20 prepare for the the

> > worst. We should always act honorably and = ethically of=20 course. That is the

> > American Way - I mean the idea of what America = should be=20 even if it sometimes

> > falls short. America, like democracy, is the = worst nation=20 on the planet, except

> > for all the others. :-)

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > of course, i've seen little of the kind of=20 institutional engagement that

> > > would enable me to assess the depth and = quality of=20 whatever non-public

> > > institutional information exists, and = therefore=20 cannot say whether my own

> > > scientific assessment of humanity's = circumstance is=20 consistent with any of

> > > the government's many internal views.

> >

> > I would bet that the government is closer to my, = and=20 Scott Littleton's spin, on

> > how to respond to the UFO reality. It would be = impossible=20 for the Joint Chiefs

> > not to attempt to achieve technological parity = with ET on=20 the military hardware

> > level, indeed they would be violating their oaths = if they=20 did not try to. I

> > think this much of their policy is clear IF they = have=20 recognized the reality and

> > truth of reports of UFO intrusions into military = areas,=20 inability of

> > interceptors to deal with these craft etc. Any = attempt by=20 us to develop

> > propellantless propulsion hardware would = immediately=20 become a military issue

> > quite independent of our personal desires. That's = reality=20 here I think.

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > i'm looking at the broader scientific = picture, with=20 the amazing sense, like

> > > all of you, of being an ordinary individual = of our=20 remarkable species,

> > > living on an unimaginably edenic planet. = it's a=20 position of the greatest

> > > possible balance i can think of.

> > >

> > > a challenging thing in these waters.

> >

> > I completely agree we should not lose sight of = the Big=20 Picture and get lost in

> > paranoia and fear-based knee jerk aggresive = response=20 patterns and destructive

> > policies - that is not, however, how the = professional=20 military behaves under

> > civilian control in the White House. The key is = for the=20 President to be

> > adequately informed and let the constitutional = process=20 really work.

> >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > --

> > CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

> > http://stardrive.org

>

> --

>

> ****************************************

> "Everything you know is wrong."

> Firesign Theater, 1971

> http://www.stardrive.org

> ****************************************

--

CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

http://stardrive.org

Subject: Re: God & ET -- Jolting us awake

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:52:25 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: yokatta@oxy.edu

CC: Joe Firmage <jfirmage@intendchange.com>, 'Dan = Smith '=20 <dansmith@clark.net>,

"'CloudRider@aol.com '" <CloudRider@aol.com>,

"'gbekkum@mediaone.net '" <gbekkum@mediaone.net>,

"'schwann@webtrance.co.za '" = <schwann@webtrance.co.za>,

"'galactic_diva@mail.telis.net '"=20 <galactic_diva@mail.telis.net>,

"'thomsona@flash.net '" <thomsona@flash.net>,

"'amit@noetic.org '" <amit@noetic.org>,

"'pandolfi@zzapp.org '" <pandolfi@zzapp.org>,

"'Aparker9@utk.edu '" <Aparker9@utk.edu>,

"'choasnet@yahoo.com '" <choasnet@yahoo.com>,

"'wil247@sacoriver.net '" <wil247@sacoriver.net>,

"'phylegyas@hotmail.com '" = <phylegyas@hotmail.com>,

"'d1494@wt.net '" <d1494@wt.net>,

"'dewatson@sunflower.com '" = <dewatson@sunflower.com>,

"'MagickMirr@aol.com '" <MagickMirr@aol.com>,

"'wcri@erols.com '" <wcri@erols.com>,

"'gschwart@u.arizona.edu '" = <gschwart@u.arizona.edu>,

"'Swimp@home.com '" <Swimp@home.com>,

"'Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk '"=20 <Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk>,

"'Puthoff@aol.com '" <Puthoff@aol.com>,

"'stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov '" <stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov>,

"'APOLLINAIR@aol.com '" <APOLLINAIR@aol.com>,

"'creon@isso.org '" <creon@isso.org>,

"'quanta@cruzio.com '" <quanta@cruzio.com>,

"'rnboyd@mip.net '" <rnboyd@mip.net>, = "'sirag@pond.net '"=20 <sirag@pond.net>,

"'tsmith@innerx.net '" <tsmith@innerx.net>,

"'TOPPAN166@aol.com '" <TOPPAN166@aol.com>,

"'brumac@compuserve.com '" = <brumac@compuserve.com>,

"'Lawrence B. Crowell '" <lcrowell@swcp.com>,

'David Lamprey ' <thelamprey@hotmail.com>,

Kim Burrafato <lensman@stardrive.org>, Carol Rosin=20 <rosin@west.net>

yokatta@oxy.edu wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Dr. Jack Sarfatti wrote:

>

> > PS

> >

> > Plausible scenario:

> >

> > ET is not invincible, they sometimes have = accidents and=20 crash as in Roswell 1947.

> >

> > Hypothetical case: ET craft with advanced weapon=20 capability crashes near Baghdad

> > with little material damage, ET crew stunned = enough so=20 that quick-witted Republican

> > Guard Commandos drug them. Former Soviet = physicists in=20 Saddam's employ figure out

> > how they work due to advanced Soviet work in = "torsion=20 fields".

> >

> > Lesson of the exercise: the key military danger = may not=20 be from ET directly, but

> > from certain human groups who get their hands on = the=20 technology.

>

> Yes, you've got that last part right! It worries the = hell out=20 of me.

> Sadam (or Milosevic, for that matter) with ET = capabilities is=20 enough to

> scare a person out of several years' growth...

>

> BTW, re Roswell, although I'm firmly convinced that=20 something

> fundamentally significant happened there in July of = 1947, a=20 few days ago I

> leaned that my new brother-in-law, Roy Franson, a = former Air=20 Force

> sergeant, who was assigned to the 509th in January of = 1949,=20 never once

> heard any scuttlebut about an alien crash, bodies, = etc., from=20 guys who'd

> been there at the time. Indeed, he says he only heard = about it=20 years

> later in the media. They really must have clamped the = lid down=20 tight!

> You'd think less than two years later there would have = been at=20 least a few

> rumors about it circulating in the ranks. = Curious...

That would suggest it did not happen of course.

>

>

> Cheers,

> Scott

>

> C. SCOTT LITTLETON "Any sufficiently evolved

> Professor of Anthropology technology is = indistinguishable

> Occidental College from magic."

> Los Angeles, CA 90041 --Arthur C. Clarke

> TEL (323) 259-2759

> FAX (323) 341-4969 "I think we're property...."

> http://www.oxy.edu/~yokatta/home.htm --Charles = Fort

--

CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

http://stardrive.org

Subject: Re: Relativistic EPR-Bell Experiments

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:07:13 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: "Lawrence B. Crowell" <lcrowell@swcp.com>

Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.skeptic

"Lawrence B. Crowell" wrote:

> I think this is a way of looking at this matter that = avoids=20 the problem of

> an instantaneous interval of collapse.

The simplest way to look at the Gisin data is the Feynman = zig-zag=20 of Costa de

Beauregard and later John Cramer in his transactional=20 intepretation. Let S be

the emission event for the pair, with E1 and E2 as the = detection=20 events.

Advanced signals travel back from the future detections at = E1 and=20 E2 to S the

emission event along the world lines to make everything = globally=20 self-consistent

in the sense of Novikov's time loops. Of course, in the = Feynman=20 picture there

are many world lines between each event pair (S,E1) and = (S,E2). In=20 this way we

avoid the need to have an actual real superluminal = propagation=20 directly from E1

to E2 across a spacelike region. In the case of massive = particles=20 the advanced

signal is along the timelike world lines backward in time. = So in=20 this case, the

EPR correlations should never disappear. There is no need = for a PF=20 and no

special status for the Hubble flow. I think we can make the = Bohm=20 theory

consistent with this - not sure though.

>

>

> The region of collapse occurs outside the past and = future=20 light cones with

> their origins at the spacetime point or event of = measurements.=20 So consider

> the points of these measurements as x and y. The = causal future=20 and past of

> these two points will be denoted by

>

> J^+(x), J^-(x)

>

> J^+(y), J^-(y)

>

> respectively. Consider the whole spacetime as S, and = let U =3D=20 union and &

> denote intersection (AND). Then the region of collapse = is

>

> S/(J^+(x)UJ^-(x))&S/J^+(y), J^-(y),

>

> which reads S modulo the future/past of S intersected = with S=20 modulo the

> future/past of S. We call this manifold Q.

>

> Now the two points have some proper interval between = them

>

> ds^2 =3D -dt^2 + dR^3

>

> which is invariant, and where dR^3 (the spacial = distance)=20 equals ds^2 if it

> is on a rest frame relative to the simultaneous frame = of the=20 two

> experiments. We then use this to map Q onto a space Q' = where=20 one

> measurement point is considered to be mapped to = "infinity." So=20 if x is at

> s =3D 0 and y is at s =3D S =3D int ds, then we = reparameterize these=20 points under

> this map (call the map M) by L =3D 1/s. This will move = the point=20 x out to

> infinity.

>

> We then consider the projective space PQ', a 3-d = manifold.=20 This space will

> then consist of all rays from M(y) to infinity which = is M(x).=20 Under the

> inverse map M^{-1} this then consists of all spacial = paths=20 from y to x.

> The space

>

> M^{-1}:PQ' ---> SC (spacial curves)

>

> then defines the region where the collapse occurs.

>

> Now I impose one condition on this:

>

> No two spacial intervals in SC intersect.

>

> This will result in a number of things. This insures = that each=20 projective

> ray in PQ' is unique, and further it results in some = topology.=20 The two

> light cones in S impose topological restrictions on = paths that=20 loop around

> them. If the above condition on spacial intervals is = imposed,=20 it means

> that a path that loops around the orgin of one light = cone can=20 not be

> continuously deformed into a path where the loop = collapses to=20 the lightcone

> origin. This uniquness of spacial intervals them means = that we=20 pick up the

> homology

>

> H_1(Q',Z) =3D ZxZ

>

> We have 2 Z's for the two topological obstructions = from two=20 light cones.

> This means that we have a manifold with the following = homology=20 structure:

>

> H_0(Q',Z) =3D Z

>

> H_1(Q',Z) =3D ZxZ

>

> H_2(Q',Z) =3D Z

>

> H_3(Q',Z) =3D 0

>

> What is interesting is that this projective space is = dual to=20 the

> Grassmannian space G_2(Q',Z) which is formed from the = set of=20 all 2-planes

> in Q'. Physically this should correspond to the set of = all=20 wave fronts or

> planes of constant action that foliate the quantum = wave=20 function in the

> spacial region where the collapse occurs.

>

> One could then presumable consider this space spacial=20 intervals by looking

> at differentials of wave functions dpsi =3D=20 sum_x(&_x(psi)dx) (& =3D

> partial)and form then in a manner that satisfies both = the=20 Schrodinger

> equation and the above topology. Alternatively one can = consider planes of

> constant action within the wave function foliation

>

> P_{op}psi =3D (<p> + &p)psi, & =3D = delta

>

> where <p> is the expectation and &p is a = quantum=20 fluctuation about

> expectation (the interaction with the vacuum). In fact = it is=20 apparent that

> for the differential operator d written as

>

> (hbar/i)d =3D (hbar/i)sum_i(dx^i nabla_i)

>

> that these two approaches are equivalent. This aspect = of the=20 problem would

> need to be worked further.

>

> I think this is a little more general than what has = been=20 discussed here,

> and it avoids these nettelsome matters of there being = a=20 preferred frame

> where collapse occurs. In the end it is a matter of = what space=20 this occurs

> on. Mostly it is argued here that it occurs on a = spacial=20 interval or a

> space of 1-d. Here I argue that it might involve a = projective=20 space of 3-d.

>

> best,

>

> Lawrence B. Crowell

>

>

> --

CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

http://stardrive.org

Subject: Re: Relativistic EPR-Bell Experiments

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:35:15 -0700

From: "Lawrence B. Crowell" <lcrowell@swcp.com>

To: hpstapp@lbl.gov, "Dr. Jack Sarfatti"=20 <sarfatti@well.com>

CC: Barry Carter <bcarter@igc.org>, Robert Neil Boyd=20 <rnboyd@mip.net>,

Evan Harris Walker <wcri@erols.com>, = "Puthoff@aol.com"=20 <Puthoff@aol.com>,

Saul-Paul Sirag <sirag@pond.net>, "tsmith@innerx.net" = <tsmith@innerx.net>,

Vladimir Poponin <vladimir@isso.org>,

"Dr. Eric W. Davis" <ericdavis@nidsci.org>, "Gary G. = Ford"=20 <Swimp@home.com>,

Creon Levit <creon@isso.org>,

"dewatson@sunflower.com" = <dewatson@sunflower.com>,

Gary E Schwartz <gschwart@U.Arizona.EDU>,

Gary Osborn <Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk>,

"JagdishM@aol.com" <JagdishM@aol.com>,

Joe Firmage <jfirmage@intendchange.com>,

L Dunning = <transparent_metals_manufacturing@hotmail.com>,

"lensman@stardrive.org" <lensman@stardrive.org>,

"pandolfi@zzapp.org" <pandolfi@zzapp.org>,

"urigeller@compuserve.com" = <urigeller@compuserve.com>,

Stan Klein <klein@spectacle.berkeley.edu>

I think this is a way of looking at this matter that avoids = the=20 problem of

an instantaneous interval of collapse.

The region of collapse occurs outside the past and future = light=20 cones with

their origins at the spacetime point or event of = measurements. So=20 consider

the points of these measurements as x and y. The causal = future and=20 past of

these two points will be denoted by

J^+(x), J^-(x)

J^+(y), J^-(y)

respectively. Consider the whole spacetime as S, and let U = =3D union=20 and &

denote intersection (AND). Then the region of collapse = is

S/(J^+(x)UJ^-(x))&S/J^+(y), J^-(y),

which reads S modulo the future/past of S intersected with = S modulo=20 the

future/past of S. We call this manifold Q.

Now the two points have some proper interval between = them

ds^2 =3D -dt^2 + dR^3

which is invariant, and where dR^3 (the spacial distance) = equals=20 ds^2 if it

is on a rest frame relative to the simultaneous frame of = the=20 two

experiments. We then use this to map Q onto a space Q' = where=20 one

measurement point is considered to be mapped to "infinity." = So if x=20 is at

s =3D 0 and y is at s =3D S =3D int ds, then we = reparameterize these=20 points under

this map (call the map M) by L =3D 1/s. This will move the = point x=20 out to

infinity.

We then consider the projective space PQ', a 3-d manifold. = This=20 space will

then consist of all rays from M(y) to infinity which is = M(x). Under=20 the

inverse map M^{-1} this then consists of all spacial paths = from y=20 to x.

The space

M^{-1}:PQ' ---> SC (spacial curves)

then defines the region where the collapse occurs.

Now I impose one condition on this:

No two spacial intervals in SC intersect.

This will result in a number of things. This insures that = each=20 projective

ray in PQ' is unique, and further it results in some = topology. The=20 two

light cones in S impose topological restrictions on paths = that loop=20 around

them. If the above condition on spacial intervals is = imposed, it=20 means

that a path that loops around the orgin of one light cone = can not=20 be

continuously deformed into a path where the loop collapses = to the=20 lightcone

origin. This uniquness of spacial intervals them means that = we pick=20 up the

homology

H_1(Q',Z) =3D ZxZ

We have 2 Z's for the two topological obstructions from two = light=20 cones.

This means that we have a manifold with the following = homology=20 structure:

H_0(Q',Z) =3D Z

H_1(Q',Z) =3D ZxZ

H_2(Q',Z) =3D Z

H_3(Q',Z) =3D 0

What is interesting is that this projective space is dual = to=20 the

Grassmannian space G_2(Q',Z) which is formed from the set = of all=20 2-planes

in Q'. Physically this should correspond to the set of all = wave=20 fronts or

planes of constant action that foliate the quantum wave = function in=20 the

spacial region where the collapse occurs.

One could then presumable consider this space spacial = intervals by=20 looking

at differentials of wave functions dpsi =3D = sum_x(&_x(psi)dx)=20 (& =3D

partial)and form then in a manner that satisfies both the=20 Schrodinger

equation and the above topology. Alternatively one can = consider=20 planes of

constant action within the wave function foliation

P_{op}psi =3D (<p> + &p)psi, & =3D delta

where <p> is the expectation and &p is a quantum=20 fluctuation about

expectation (the interaction with the vacuum). In fact it = is=20 apparent that

for the differential operator d written as

(hbar/i)d =3D (hbar/i)sum_i(dx^i nabla_i)

that these two approaches are equivalent. This aspect of = the=20 problem would

need to be worked further.

I think this is a little more general than what has been = discussed=20 here,

and it avoids these nettelsome matters of there being a = preferred=20 frame

where collapse occurs. In the end it is a matter of what = space this=20 occurs

on. Mostly it is argued here that it occurs on a spacial = interval=20 or a

space of 1-d. Here I argue that it might involve a = projective space=20 of 3-d.

best,

Lawrence B. Crowell

"The problem is, of course, that not only is economics = bankrupt but=20 it

has always been nothing more than politics in disguise = ...

economics is a form of brain damage." -- Hazel = Henderson

Subject: Re: God & ET -- Jolting us awake

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:29:48 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: "Lawrence B. Crowell" <lcrowell@swcp.com>

CC: yokatta@oxy.edu, Joe Firmage=20 <jfirmage@intendchange.com>,

'Dan Smith ' <dansmith@clark.net>,

"'CloudRider@aol.com '" <CloudRider@aol.com>,

"'gbekkum@mediaone.net '" <gbekkum@mediaone.net>,

"'schwann@webtrance.co.za '" = <schwann@webtrance.co.za>,

"'galactic_diva@mail.telis.net '"=20 <galactic_diva@mail.telis.net>,

"'thomsona@flash.net '" <thomsona@flash.net>,

"'amit@noetic.org '" <amit@noetic.org>,

"'pandolfi@zzapp.org '" <pandolfi@zzapp.org>,

"'Aparker9@utk.edu '" <Aparker9@utk.edu>,

"'choasnet@yahoo.com '" <choasnet@yahoo.com>,

"'wil247@sacoriver.net '" <wil247@sacoriver.net>,

"'phylegyas@hotmail.com '" = <phylegyas@hotmail.com>,

"'d1494@wt.net '" <d1494@wt.net>,

"'dewatson@sunflower.com '" = <dewatson@sunflower.com>,

"'MagickMirr@aol.com '" <MagickMirr@aol.com>,

"'wcri@erols.com '" <wcri@erols.com>,

"'gschwart@u.arizona.edu '" = <gschwart@u.arizona.edu>,

"'Swimp@home.com '" <Swimp@home.com>,

"'Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk '"=20 <Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk>,

"'Puthoff@aol.com '" <Puthoff@aol.com>,

"'stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov '" <stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov>,

"'APOLLINAIR@aol.com '" <APOLLINAIR@aol.com>,

"'creon@isso.org '" <creon@isso.org>,

"'quanta@cruzio.com '" <quanta@cruzio.com>,

"'rnboyd@mip.net '" <rnboyd@mip.net>, = "'sirag@pond.net '"=20 <sirag@pond.net>,

"'tsmith@innerx.net '" <tsmith@innerx.net>,

"'TOPPAN166@aol.com '" <TOPPAN166@aol.com>,

"'brumac@compuserve.com '" = <brumac@compuserve.com>,

'David Lamprey ' <thelamprey@hotmail.com>,

Kim Burrafato <lensman@stardrive.org>, Carol Rosin=20 <rosin@west.net>,

Abigail Lewis <abby@isso.org>, Tony Young=20 <tony@isso.org>

"Lawrence B. Crowell" wrote:

> At 03:52 PM 9/26/00 -0700, Dr. Jack Sarfatti = wrote:

> >

> >

> >yokatta@oxy.edu wrote:

> >

> >>

> >> BTW, re Roswell, although I'm firmly = convinced that=20 something

> >> fundamentally significant happened there in = July of=20 1947, a few days ago I

> >> leaned that my new brother-in-law, Roy = Franson, a=20 former Air Force

> >> sergeant, who was assigned to the 509th in = January of=20 1949, never once

> >> heard any scuttlebut about an alien crash, = bodies,=20 etc., from guys who'd

> >> been there at the time. Indeed, he says he = only heard=20 about it years

> >> later in the media. They really must have = clamped the=20 lid down tight!

> >> You'd think less than two years later there = would=20 have been at least a few

> >> rumors about it circulating in the ranks.=20 Curious...

> >

> >That would suggest it did not happen of = course.

> >

>

> BINGO! Jack.

>

> Look the whole thing about ET landing on Earth has to = be seen=20 in another

> light. The Earth has been in existence for 5.5 billion = years.=20 Life on

> this planet has been around for 3.5 billion years and = the=20 "Cambrian

> explosion" of complex life began 700 million years = ago. At no=20 point in the

> geological history of this planet is there any = evidence of a=20 major

> exploitive penetration of this planet by = extraterrestrials. Ok=20 maybe it is

> possible that a few visitations occurred, and that = evidence of=20 that has

> been lost in the noise. However, a major colonization = or=20 exploitive action

> against this planet would be totally evident in the = geological=20 record.

> Over hundreds of millions of years as our solar system = has=20 orbited the

> galacitc center it is possible (thought not very = probable)=20 that an

> enterprising species of ETs sent a craft or two in our = direction.

Remember Star Gate Technology from the universe next door = in=20 hyperspace. Do not

think in terms of long journeys through space via = conventional=20 propulsion. Some

of that may take place of course, but that is not, most = likely, the=20 dominant

means of transportation in Kaku's Type 4 classification of=20 advanced

civilizations. It's more IMO like what was shown in the = movie=20 version of Carl

Sagan's Cosmos.

>

>

> The probability that ETs would just start to show up = around=20 the same time

> that we started thinking about space travel and ET=20 possibilities has got to

> be astronomically small! So why is it that the idea = that ET=20 penetration of

> our planet become so big? It is quite obvious, it is = because=20 we can

> conceive of the idea. It is a very human element that = we=20 should become

> scared of ghosts in old buildings, or vampires in = graveyards.=20 For

> creatures of such capablilities we are also quite = capable of=20 letting our

> imaginations run away with our fears.

Yes, and Joe Firmage made a good point about that. Let us = remember=20 FDR "We have

nothing to fear, but fear itself."

>

>

> So if Jack is right about such high level government = interest=20 in UFOs, I

> think some rude questions need to be asked! In = particular you=20 might want

> to watch out for your wallets and bank accounts, not = to=20 mention the

> nefarious activities of the IRS. The IRS was = established to=20 maintain a

> cash flow for the military industrial complex. If = government=20 is truly

> interested in this, as Jack claims, I think that = anyone with=20 any a

> skeptical bone in their body has to smell a scam in = the=20 works.

>

Larry I classify your views on UFOs and paranormal also as = off=20 kilter, unbalanced

like Dan's and Dick's, though not as extreme as either of = them. I=20 do not mean to

imply you are all coming from the same place of course.

My view is that it is clear they are here, the problem is = how to=20 properly react

to that fact without being stupidly aggressive nor blindly = trusting=20 and

defenceless. You can be sure that the Pentagon will not let = the=20 latter happen. I

am not so sure about the former and that is a problem.

CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

http://stardrive.org

Subject: Re: Relativistic EPR-Bell Experiments

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:42:32 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: "Lawrence B. Crowell" <lcrowell@swcp.com>

CC: hpstapp@lbl.gov, Barry Carter = <bcarter@igc.org>,

Robert Neil Boyd <rnboyd@mip.net>, Evan Harris Walker = <wcri@erols.com>,

"Puthoff@aol.com" <Puthoff@aol.com>, Saul-Paul Sirag=20 <sirag@pond.net>,

"tsmith@innerx.net" <tsmith@innerx.net>, Vladimir = Poponin=20 <vladimir@isso.org>,

"Dr. Eric W. Davis" <ericdavis@nidsci.org>, "Gary G. = Ford"=20 <Swimp@home.com>,

Creon Levit <creon@isso.org>,

"dewatson@sunflower.com" = <dewatson@sunflower.com>,

Gary E Schwartz <gschwart@U.Arizona.EDU>,

Gary Osborn <Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk>,

"JagdishM@aol.com" <JagdishM@aol.com>,

Joe Firmage <jfirmage@intendchange.com>,

L Dunning = <transparent_metals_manufacturing@hotmail.com>,

"lensman@stardrive.org" <lensman@stardrive.org>,

"pandolfi@zzapp.org" <pandolfi@zzapp.org>,

"urigeller@compuserve.com" = <urigeller@compuserve.com>,

Stan Klein <klein@spectacle.berkeley.edu>

Does anyone understand this? I don't.

"Lawrence B. Crowell" wrote:

> I think this is a way of looking at this matter that = avoids=20 the problem of

> an instantaneous interval of collapse.

>

> The region of collapse occurs outside the past and = future=20 light cones with

> their origins at the spacetime point or event of = measurements.=20 So consider

> the points of these measurements as x and y. The = causal future=20 and past of

> these two points will be denoted by

>

> J^+(x), J^-(x)

>

> J^+(y), J^-(y)

>

> respectively. Consider the whole spacetime as S, and = let U =3D=20 union and &

> denote intersection (AND). Then the region of collapse = is

>

> S/(J^+(x)UJ^-(x))&S/J^+(y), J^-(y),

>

> which reads S modulo the future/past of S intersected = with S=20 modulo the

> future/past of S. We call this manifold Q.

>

> Now the two points have some proper interval between = them

>

> ds^2 =3D -dt^2 + dR^3

>

> which is invariant, and where dR^3 (the spacial = distance)=20 equals ds^2 if it

> is on a rest frame relative to the simultaneous frame = of the=20 two

> experiments. We then use this to map Q onto a space Q' = where=20 one

> measurement point is considered to be mapped to = "infinity." So=20 if x is at

> s =3D 0 and y is at s =3D S =3D int ds, then we = reparameterize these=20 points under

> this map (call the map M) by L =3D 1/s. This will move = the point=20 x out to

> infinity.

>

> We then consider the projective space PQ', a 3-d = manifold.=20 This space will

> then consist of all rays from M(y) to infinity which = is M(x).=20 Under the

> inverse map M^{-1} this then consists of all spacial = paths=20 from y to x.

> The space

>

> M^{-1}:PQ' ---> SC (spacial curves)

>

> then defines the region where the collapse occurs.

>

> Now I impose one condition on this:

>

> No two spacial intervals in SC intersect.

>

> This will result in a number of things. This insures = that each=20 projective

> ray in PQ' is unique, and further it results in some = topology.=20 The two

> light cones in S impose topological restrictions on = paths that=20 loop around

> them. If the above condition on spacial intervals is = imposed,=20 it means

> that a path that loops around the orgin of one light = cone can=20 not be

> continuously deformed into a path where the loop = collapses to=20 the lightcone

> origin. This uniquness of spacial intervals them means = that we=20 pick up the

> homology

>

> H_1(Q',Z) =3D ZxZ

>

> We have 2 Z's for the two topological obstructions = from two=20 light cones.

> This means that we have a manifold with the following = homology=20 structure:

>

> H_0(Q',Z) =3D Z

>

> H_1(Q',Z) =3D ZxZ

>

> H_2(Q',Z) =3D Z

>

> H_3(Q',Z) =3D 0

>

> What is interesting is that this projective space is = dual to=20 the

> Grassmannian space G_2(Q',Z) which is formed from the = set of=20 all 2-planes

> in Q'. Physically this should correspond to the set of = all=20 wave fronts or

> planes of constant action that foliate the quantum = wave=20 function in the

> spacial region where the collapse occurs.

>

> One could then presumable consider this space spacial=20 intervals by looking

> at differentials of wave functions dpsi =3D=20 sum_x(&_x(psi)dx) (& =3D

> partial)and form then in a manner that satisfies both = the=20 Schrodinger

> equation and the above topology. Alternatively one can = consider planes of

> constant action within the wave function foliation

>

> P_{op}psi =3D (<p> + &p)psi, & =3D = delta

>

> where <p> is the expectation and &p is a = quantum=20 fluctuation about

> expectation (the interaction with the vacuum). In fact = it is=20 apparent that

> for the differential operator d written as

>

> (hbar/i)d =3D (hbar/i)sum_i(dx^i nabla_i)

>

> that these two approaches are equivalent. This aspect = of the=20 problem would

> need to be worked further.

>

> I think this is a little more general than what has = been=20 discussed here,

> and it avoids these nettelsome matters of there being = a=20 preferred frame

> where collapse occurs. In the end it is a matter of = what space=20 this occurs

> on. Mostly it is argued here that it occurs on a = spacial=20 interval or a

> space of 1-d. Here I argue that it might involve a = projective=20 space of 3-d.

>

> best,

>

> Lawrence B. Crowell

>

> "The problem is, of course, that not only is economics = bankrupt but it

> has always been nothing more than politics in disguise = ...

> economics is a form of brain damage." -- Hazel = Henderson

--

CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

http://stardrive.org

Subject: The Forgotten Jolting: W. African FOSSIL FISSION=20 REACTOR

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 23:43:14 -0600

From: "G. G. Ford" <swimp@home.com>

Organization: SWIMP

To: "Lawrence B. Crowell" <lcrowell@swcp.com>

CC: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>,=20 yokatta@oxy.edu,

Joe Firmage <jfirmage@intendchange.com>,

'Dan Smith ' <dansmith@clark.net>,

"'CloudRider@aol.com '" <CloudRider@aol.com>,

"'gbekkum@mediaone.net '" <gbekkum@mediaone.net>,

"'schwann@webtrance.co.za '" = <schwann@webtrance.co.za>,

"'galactic_diva@mail.telis.net '"=20 <galactic_diva@mail.telis.net>,

"'thomsona@flash.net '" <thomsona@flash.net>,

"'amit@noetic.org '" <amit@noetic.org>,

"'pandolfi@zzapp.org '" <pandolfi@zzapp.org>,

"'Aparker9@utk.edu '" <Aparker9@utk.edu>,

"'choasnet@yahoo.com '" <choasnet@yahoo.com>,

"'wil247@sacoriver.net '" <wil247@sacoriver.net>,

"'phylegyas@hotmail.com '" = <phylegyas@hotmail.com>,

"'d1494@wt.net '" <d1494@wt.net>,

"'dewatson@sunflower.com '" = <dewatson@sunflower.com>,

"'MagickMirr@aol.com '" <MagickMirr@aol.com>,

"'wcri@erols.com '" <wcri@erols.com>,

"'gschwart@u.arizona.edu '" = <gschwart@u.arizona.edu>,

"'Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk '"=20 <Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk>,

"'Puthoff@aol.com '" <Puthoff@aol.com>,

"'stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov '" <stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov>,

"'APOLLINAIR@aol.com '" <APOLLINAIR@aol.com>,

"'creon@isso.org '" <creon@isso.org>,

"'quanta@cruzio.com '" <quanta@cruzio.com>,

"'rnboyd@mip.net '" <rnboyd@mip.net>,

"'sirag@pond.net '" <sirag@pond.net>,

"'tsmith@innerx.net '" <tsmith@innerx.net>,

"'TOPPAN166@aol.com '" <TOPPAN166@aol.com>,

"'brumac@compuserve.com '" = <brumac@compuserve.com>,

'David Lamprey ' <thelamprey@hotmail.com>,

Kim Burrafato <lensman@stardrive.org>, Carol Rosin=20 <rosin@west.net>

Larry,

several decades ago, the remains of a 2+ billion years

before present 'rare natural' nuclear reactor was found

in West Africa, depleted of U-235, enriched in some

long term surviving Uranium Fission by products.

Consider the possibility the fraction of an U-235

ore was HIGHER in U235 THEN compared with NOW?

No consideration was given to the possibility that this = was

a partially metamorphized ACTUAL NUCLEAR REACTOR,

because the pride-and-religion drenched = '''Scienttists'''

who Found it KNEW that Only WE (humans, manunclean)

can Make ARTIFICIAL Nuclera Fission Reactors, and WE

just weren't around then, ERGO ...

Gary http://www.Swimp.org/

PS: If this is a surprise to anyone, let me ask if

"You are Rip van Winkle?"

This discovery made Science News, Sci Am,

Nature, etc.

>=3D=3D-->>>

TO THE ATTUNED EAR, it was a far more exciting

Discovery than 'Daytime Disks' or 'Nocturnal Lights'!

"Lawrence B. Crowell" wrote:

> Dr. Jack Sarfatti wrote:

> >yokatta@oxy.edu wrote:

> >

> >> BTW, re Roswell, although I'm firmly = convinced that=20 something

> >> fundamentally significant happened there in = July of=20 1947, a few days ago I

> >> leaned that my new brother-in-law, Roy = Franson, a=20 former Air Force

> >> sergeant, who was assigned to the 509th in = January of=20 1949, never once

> >> heard any scuttlebut about an alien crash, = bodies,=20 etc., from guys who'd

> >> been there at the time. Indeed, he says he = only heard=20 about it years

> >> later in the media. They really must have = clamped the=20 lid down tight!

> >> You'd think less than two years later there = would=20 have been at least a few

> >> rumors about it circulating in the ranks.=20 Curious...

> >

> >That would suggest it did not happen of = course.

> >

>

> BINGO! Jack.

>

> Look the whole thing about ET landing on Earth has to = be seen=20 in another

> light. The Earth has been in existence for 5.5 billion = years.=20 Life on

> this planet has been around for 3.5 billion years and = the=20 "Cambrian

> explosion" of complex life began 700 million years = ago. At no=20 point in the

> geological history of this planet is there any = evidence of a=20 major

> exploitive penetration of this planet by=20 extraterrestrials.

Subject: RE: God & ET -- Jolting us awake

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 23:24:37 -0700

From: Joe Firmage <jfirmage@intendchange.com>

To: "'Gary S. Bekkum '" <gbekkum@mediaone.net>, "'Dr. = Jack=20 Sarfatti '"

<sarfatti@well.com>

CC: Joe Firmage <jfirmage@intendchange.com>, ''Dan = Smith '=20 '

<dansmith@clark.net>, "''CloudRider@aol.com ' '"=20 <CloudRider@aol.com>,

"''schwann@webtrance.co.za ' '"=20 <schwann@webtrance.co.za>,

"''galactic_diva@mail.telis.net ' '"=20 <galactic_diva@mail.telis.net>,

"''thomsona@flash.net ' '" <thomsona@flash.net>,=20 "''amit@noetic.org ' '"

<amit@noetic.org>, "''pandolfi@zzapp.org ' '"=20 <pandolfi@zzapp.org>,

"''Aparker9@utk.edu ' '" <Aparker9@utk.edu>,=20 "''choasnet@yahoo.com ' '"

<choasnet@yahoo.com>, "''wil247@sacoriver.net ' = '"

<wil247@sacoriver.net>, "''phylegyas@hotmail.com ' = '"

<phylegyas@hotmail.com>, "''d1494@wt.net ' '"=20 <d1494@wt.net>,

"''dewatson@sunflower.com ' '" = <dewatson@sunflower.com>,

"''MagickMirr@aol.com ' '" <MagickMirr@aol.com>,=20 "''wcri@erols.com ' '"

<wcri@erols.com>, "''gschwart@u.arizona.edu ' '"

<gschwart@u.arizona.edu>, "''Swimp@home.com ' '"=20 <Swimp@home.com>,

"''Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk ' '"=20 <Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk>,

"''Puthoff@aol.com ' '" <Puthoff@aol.com>,=20 "''stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov ' '"

<stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov>, "''APOLLINAIR@aol.com ' '"=20 <APOLLINAIR@aol.com>,

"''creon@isso.org ' '" <creon@isso.org>, = "''quanta@cruzio.com=20 ' '"

<quanta@cruzio.com>, "''rnboyd@mip.net ' '"=20 <rnboyd@mip.net>,

"''sirag@pond.net ' '" <sirag@pond.net>, = "''tsmith@innerx.net=20 ' '"

<tsmith@innerx.net>, "''TOPPAN166@aol.com ' '"=20 <TOPPAN166@aol.com>,

"''yokatta@oxy.edu ' '" <yokatta@oxy.edu>,=20 "''brumac@compuserve.com ' '"

<brumac@compuserve.com>, "''Lawrence B. Crowell ' '"=20 <lcrowell@swcp.com>,

''David Lamprey ' ' <thelamprey@hotmail.com>, 'Kim = Burrafato=20 '

<lensman@stardrive.org>, 'Carol Rosin '=20 <rosin@west.net>

important thoughts below... joe

-----Original Message-----

From: Gary S. Bekkum

To: Dr. Jack Sarfatti

Cc: Joe Firmage; 'Dan Smith '; 'CloudRider@aol.com ';

'schwann@webtrance.co.za '; 'galactic_diva@mail.telis.net = ';

'thomsona@flash.net '; 'amit@noetic.org '; = 'pandolfi@zzapp.org=20 ';

'Aparker9@utk.edu '; 'choasnet@yahoo.com '; = 'wil247@sacoriver.net=20 ';

'phylegyas@hotmail.com '; 'd1494@wt.net '; = 'dewatson@sunflower.com=20 ';

'MagickMirr@aol.com '; 'wcri@erols.com '; = 'gschwart@u.arizona.edu=20 ';

'Swimp@home.com '; 'Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk ';=20 'Puthoff@aol.com ';

'stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov '; 'APOLLINAIR@aol.com '; = 'creon@isso.org=20 ';

'quanta@cruzio.com '; 'rnboyd@mip.net '; 'sirag@pond.net = ';

'tsmith@innerx.net '; 'TOPPAN166@aol.com '; = 'yokatta@oxy.edu ';

'brumac@compuserve.com '; 'Lawrence B. Crowell '; 'David = Lamprey ';=20 Kim

Burrafato; Carol Rosin

Sent: 9/26/00 7:31 PM

Subject: Re: God & ET -- Jolting us awake

[Gary]

I would like to add a few points in addition to Jack's = comments=20 re:

Joe's "universal intelligence" perspective and ET.

[Joe]

> > i think it is undoubtedly the case that a = Universal=20 intelligence

influences

> > us, since we humans are beings too, with some = ability to=20 recognize a

> > collective consciousness.

[Gary]

I continue to see "category errors" and improper mixing of=20 "conceptual

degrees of freedom" in this eccentric group of UFO = believers. I=20 am

especially concerned that "archetypal synesthesia" leads to = naive

identification of ET with other fundamental aspects of = reality.=20 Joe

says "...it is undoubtedly the case that a Universal=20 intelligence

influences us" and I agree absolutely with this assessment. = The

important point is that "universality" implies a kind of = symmetry=20 with

respect to the mind and the experiential nature of = reality.

When we reduce our inner "experiential" complexity, we = "make=20 contact"

with this "universal field" of intelligence, since our=20 experiential

nature is in itself a reflection of what we are in that = moment.

Joe - I heartily agree with your point, and was not making = the=20 category

error. More below on this point...

[Joe]

> > since we are undoubtedly a young species, still = just=20 recently aware

of our

> > collective experience, i believe that leaping to=20 conclusions of

> > non-neautrality of its intent would be premature, = though=20 my

reasoning says

> > it seeks beneficience, since we exist. that = conforms with=20 our sense

of hope.

[Gary]

Here I would make a distinction - "recently aware of our=20 collective

experience" implies both shared awareness of our "low=20 complexity"

symmetries and acceptance of the need for individual = complexity=20 and

uniqueness. Our hope is thus born in a spiritual awareness = which=20 may be

fully experienced near the low complexity mental limit. = Restoring=20 this

symmetry within the process of natural selection leads to = harmony=20 at the

higher complexity level. Breaking of the same symmetry = produces=20 chaotic

growth and ultimate disaster.

[Jack]

> Again I do not think we should assume only one kind of = ET. The=20 data on

> abductions of unwilling people should give us pause. = On the=20 other hand

my own

> personal contact(s), like yours, were not harmful. So = there=20 are

significant

> differences in the data.

[Gary]

If you follow my point re: universality then I hope it is = apparent=20 that

ET is a unique and complex phenomena and should not in any = sense=20 be

mis-interpreted with "universality". This is a critical = point and=20 Jack

is absolutely correct above in his analysis of ET as = complex=20 phenomena,

i.e. "significant differences in the data."

Joe - I am in total agreement with this point. I have less = time=20 than I would

like to frame every sentence, particularly these days. I am = not=20 confusing

ETs with the fundamental universality of being -- of which = all=20 physical

systems are instances. The "universality" term was not = referencing=20 ET

individuals or a collective influence from ET per se. = Rather, our=20 shared

physicality... we are "that". The influence of the = collective being=20 upon

individuals may have important, perhaps described best as=20 spiritual,

significance, and is not to be confused with the ET = question,=20 though they

may have (very important) overlapping phenomenological=20 considerations.

[Gary]

IMHO we are dealing with MANY categories of complex = paranormal

phenomena, and ET is only one of them. Let's be honest = about what=20 is

under consideration here. We have complex subjective = phenomena=20 which

are being associated with ET and then there are the=20 quasi-physical

events (mostly sightings of unidentified objects in the = sky, or=20 perhaps

on radar). The arbitrary mixing of elements of these two = categories=20 is

the wrong approach to get to the heart of the various = phenomena.=20 This

leads to generally meaningless metaphysical pandering and = the kind=20 of

soft thinking that has no chance of dealing with the issue = of=20 other

complex intelligence in the universe.

Joe - Agreed. I've been saying for two years now that we = likely=20 face a

future in which the U in UFO stands for unidentifiABLE. Why = do we=20 expect

more diversity of morphology in Earth's oceans than space? = If we=20 are like a

bright species of coral fish on a Cosmic reef, then we = might expect=20 an

astonishing range of phenomena beyond our little shore.

[Joe]

> > i sense a cosmic paranoia in your writings, and = sometimes=20 in jack's,

that

> > does not resonate in any way with my intellectual = senses.=20 i do not

in any

> > sense believe that we should take a military = posture as=20 the intent

or

> > backbone of a venture into space.

[Gary]

Here in lies the danger should we mistake the low = complexity

universality with the complex cosmic ecology.

We should not, IMHO, in any way, underestimate ET with = regards=20 to

motivation, spiritual development, or intention towards the = human

species. Read Murray Gell-Mann's book "The Quark and the = Jaguar".=20 We

exist near the border of chaos. ET brings a new dynamical=20 influence

into the equation which must be addressed soberly, if=20 open-mindedly,

with a severe understanding of the consequences of any=20 miscalculation.

We should assume that if ET exist, then we are part of a = greater=20 cosmic

ecological system, and never having departed our nest, we=20 cannot

objectively infer what is "out there" or what ET's actions = may

portend. Some of us may potentially have "deeper" insight = into=20 this

phenomena. At this stage I think we should focus on the=20 objective

consensus reality, and see what clues may be uncovered.

Joe - I agree with most of this, particularly that a most = sober

consideration of the macroecological structure is a = fundamental=20 requirement.

Of course, we must infer what is out there by what we = observe,=20 interpreted

by what we know. If we are a part of a larger community of = life,=20 such

knowledge would clearly play a part in the = conceptualization of=20 individual

and collective futures. At this stage, when *every* domain = of=20 science-driven

technology is producing jaw-dropping capabilities, and when = economics is

racing human beings and technology against each other by = measures=20 of

productivity blind to source of labor, I am more concerned = about=20 the

environmental sustainability of Earth and the well-being of = humanity than

that we are about to disrupt any ET civilization. The = evidence=20 better

suggests that they may be trying to nudge our civilization = along.=20 Continuing

to keep our official head in the sand may be an = increasingly=20 dangerous

gamble, in a society that is growing more complex every = day.

In order to change our dangerous ways, we need a future = vision. In=20 order to

conceptualize a future vision most free of miscalculation, = the=20 decision

makers -- millions of leaders across "ideotechnomics" = (ideology +=20 technology

+ economics) -- need to know whatever can be known about = those=20 factors that

will actually influence us all. Good decisions depend upon=20 truthful

knowledge. Since the UFO question is not being discussed=20 openly,

government/science risks making precisely the mistake you = note=20 above, while

also losing credibility with the public in excluding = observed=20 phenomena from

theoretical plausibility. This is one of the reasons for = the=20 ubiquity of

nonsense in the UFO/Psi field. Science rejected = observations=20 because of

theory and said the observers were nuts, so many observers = rejected=20 science

and created masses of nutty books. And the cycle reinforces = itself=20 to its

present state of nuttiness where black holes, worm holes,=20 Casimir-plate time

travel portals, 11 dimensional space-time theories, and

particle-theory-proliferation can appear in credible = journals of=20 physics,

and observations of craft that can move without shooting = stuff out=20 of a

nozzle -- and theories of physics beginning to illuminate = such=20 function --

cannot. Meanwhile, who knows how much nutty books may have = polluted=20 the

consciousness of our culture, and whether such may play a = partial=20 role in

explaining the conscious experiences of some individuals. = Now is=20 not a time

for science to fail humanity.

[Gary]

I also believe it is likely that within the cosmic ecology, = we are=20 most

likely to attract the attention of "others" at some stage = of=20 evolution

near enough to ourselves that they should at the very least = be

identifiable. That is not to say that we may someday find = out nest=20 has

been laid in the inner sanctum of some extraordinary=20 intelligence

analogous to the spider's web in the corner of a room. = Perhaps we=20 shall

suffer the unfortunate equivalent of being sucked out of = exist by=20 some

cosmic "vacuum" on cosmic cleaning day. If so, there is = little we=20 can

do to prevent this. No, our concerns will most likely = involve=20 those

nearer to us in their fortunes, if perhaps a bit more = advanced.=20 This is

the area that should be of immediate concern to us.

Joe - Again, I agree.

[Jack]

> Since it is a fact that we are outclassed in terms of=20 military

hardware in

> actual UFO encounters you can be sure that the main = interest=20 of the

military

> will be to achieve some kind of balance no matter how = you=20 personally

view it. I

> agree that the dominant ET contact has not been = hostile or=20 else we

would not be

> here now to debate it.

[Gary]

Premature assumption. We are here until "they" would decide = otherwise.

[Jack]

> Again the key point is not to assume there is only = one

> kind of ET with one intention.

[Gary]

Or even one kind of "paranormal phenomena".

Joe - Precisely.

[Jack]

> One must be open to real evidence. The fly in the

> ointment are the abductions even if later some of the=20 abductees

identify with

> the aggressor like Patty Hearst with the SLA. The = abductors=20 are

clearly not the

> same ETs you and I seem to have experienced.

[Gary]

Remember what you are describing here is a higher = complexity=20 (therefore

higher intelligence) subjective phenomena (until proven=20 otherwise).

However, I generally believe that Jack is correct and would = identify at

least two different "groups". We should also keep in mind = that=20 "they"

may be pawns no different from ourselves in some = otherworldly=20 experiment

to test our compatibility etc.

[Jack]

> I take John Mack's reports

> seriously, though, perhaps not always the optimistic = spin he=20 puts on

the data.

> On the other hand, Jacobs may be too much the other = way.=20 Pamela

Stonebrooke's

> encounters seem to be mostly beneficent and they imply = time=20 travel is

key to the

> phenomenon.

[Gary]

Other times =3D special cases of other worlds, or maybe = not?

[Joe]

> > i seriously question that a sentient species must = fear=20 becoming

aware of its

> > existence within galactic civilization(s).

>

> I completely agree with that and have never suggested=20 otherwise.

[Gary]

I seriously question "not being extremely cautious" with = ET. I=20 would

recommend the same in handling any potentially dangerous=20 unknown

species. Obviously there is a range of personal = "interaction"

experiences, some positive, some extremely negative. Even = if ET=20 hands

over exotic technology, until we fully understand the=20 parameters

involved, we should at best "proceed with caution".

Joe - We agree completely that caution is vital, but I = would argue=20 that we

should proceed. I'm simply saying that we should not = project the=20 nonsense

tribalism of our evolutionary past onto *any* intelligent = species=20 capable of

interstellar travel. I have several important thoughts on = the=20 abduction

conundrum but will save those for another time. More to the = point,

uncovering the laws of physics may provide an exquisitely = perfect=20 system of

increasingly transparent self-reflection, which suggests to = me (1)=20 that

fearing a warlike or even neutral notion of ethics among=20 physics-capable

sentients is unjustified and (2) as an aside, ultimately = the=20 physics of DNA

might prove as beautifully special as the double-helix = shape=20 implies,

decidely not "random" and not an ET creation.

> Let us hope that is how it will turn out. I think the = Pentagon=20 DIA and

the CIA,

> NSA et-al will take the position: hope for the best, = but=20 prepare for

the the

> worst. We should always act honorably and ethically of = course.=20 That is

the

> American Way - I mean the idea of what America should = be even=20 if it

sometimes

> falls short. America, like democracy, is the worst = nation on=20 the

planet, except

> for all the others. :-)

Ingo Swann claims to have been taken to witness ET vehicle = first=20 hand.

If true his account does not paint a rosy picture of our=20 co-habitation

with ET. If the "black agency" that allegedly asked for his = aid to=20 RV

ET was involved with DIA or CIA etc. then either (1) Swann = was set=20 up to

spread dis-information or (2) the intelligence community = has=20 been

fighting a "cold war" with ET for at least 25 years.

--

"The only justification for our concepts and system of = concepts is=20 that

they serve to represent the complex of our experiences; = beyond this=20 they

have no legitimacy."

Albert Einstein - "The Meaning of Relativity"

"No formal 'talent', 'wunderkind abilities', personal = ambitions=20 and

relations, technical power, or material prosperity can = replace the=20 power

of creation coming only from the open, free interaction = with the=20 Truth."

Andrei Kirilyuk - "Universal Concept of Complexity"

"Through this 'Key' Divine Intention can be connected to = our world,=20 and

to other may be worlds. Some of those worlds can be the = worlds of=20 our

dreams. "The 'Key to the Universe' is the archetype of = evolution=20 that

now we know and can use consciously."

George Ryazanov - "Key to Absolute Flight"

"That's the effect of living backwards," the Queen said = kindly:=20 "it

always makes one a little giddy at first...but there's one=20 great

advantage in it, that one's memory works both ways."

Lewis Carroll - "Through the Looking Glass"

Subject: Re: main cooper errors

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 07:59:54 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: JamesOberg@aol.com

Thanks for your info. Of course I know nothing of this = story either=20 way. :-)

JamesOberg@aol.com wrote:

> Jack, the biggest blunders in Cooper's book can be = found by=20 comparing his

> versions of his 1951 and 1957 UFO encounters with what = I found=20 and reported

> when I researched them in the early 1980s (when many = other=20 witnesses were

> still alive). Everybody else involved in both venues = disputes=20 nearly EVERY

> factual claim made by Cooper. My report, "In Search of = Gordon=20 Cooper's UFOs",

> can be found linked from my page or Cooper's page on=20 www.ufomind.com, for

> your convenience.

>

> Cooper also viciously blames backstabbing by Mercury = buddies=20 for denying him

> his rightful command of a lunar mission, after he = served on=20 the Apollo-10

> backup crew. Everyone else, absolutely everyone = involved with=20 that mission,

> agrees that Cooper flubbed his duties, never caught on = with=20 training for the

> systems and procedures of the complex program, and was = clearly=20 incapable of

> safely commanding a real mission. You might even ask = Ed=20 Mitchell, who was on

> the crew with Cooper, to confirm this.

--

CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

http://stardrive.org

Subject: Re: God & ET -- Jolting us awake

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:19:21 -0400

From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>

To: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

CC: bruce maccabee <72326.3625@compuserve.com>, = Abigail Lewis=20 <abby@isso.org>,

William Church <iwar@iwar.org>,

"W. Hinckley Waitt" <info@taggarthouse.com>,

Vladimir Poponin <vladimir@isso.org>, Uzi Awret=20 <awret@erols.com>,

Tony Smith <tsmith@innerx.net>, Tony Young=20 <tony@isso.org>,

SKrippner <skrippner@saybrook.edu>, Scott Littleton=20 <yokatta@oxy.edu>,

Scott Jones <sherlight@ktc.com>, Saul-Paul Sirag=20 <sirag@pond.net>,

Sam Sternberg <samster@istar.ca>, Ron Pandolfi=20 <pandolfi@zzapp.org>,

"puthoff@aol.com" <puthoff@aol.com>, Old Nick=20 <quanta@cruzio.com>,

Nick Cook <nc@nickcook.demon.co.uk>, Mike Coyle=20 <vericomm@idiom.com>,

cynthia ford <maruta@wco.com>,

Marcus Robinson <wetware@frontiernet.net>,

Marcello Truzzi <truzzi@toast.net>,

Kim Burrafato <lensman@stardrive.org>, John Dering=20 <jdering@sara.com>,

Joel Kohn <jmkohn@sirius.com>, Joe Firmage=20 <jfirmage@intendchange.com>,

Jeffrey Mishlove = <jeffrey.mishlove@intuition.org>,

Jagdish Mann <JagdishM@aol.com>, Ira Einhorn=20 <User886114@aol.com>,

Hank Harrison <hank-harrison@excite.com>,

Glen Lindenstadt <glenl@pacbell.net>, Frank Mosca=20 <mosca@peconic.net>,

Foster Gamble <FosterGam@aol.com>, fly agaric=20 <32fibonacci@excite.com>,

"faustin@sound.photosynthesis.com"=20 <faustin@sound.photosynthesis.com>,

Erik Davis <figment@sirius.com>,

"'Ed Mitchell'" <edgarmitchell@email.msn.com>,

"Dr. Eric W. Davis" <ericdavis@nidsci.org>,

Dick Farley <CloudRider@aol.com>, Dan Smith=20 <dansmith@clark.net>,

Creon Levit <creon@isso.org>, Cheryl Haley=20 <cherylh@webtv.net>,

Carol Rosin <rosin@west.net>, Brother Blue=20 <brotherblue93@hotmail.com>,

"Appollinar@aol.com" <Appollinar@aol.com>,

Alan Parker <PARKEAM@mail.utenn.edu>,

Uri Geller <UriGeller@compuserve.com>

Abegail wrote:"

>

You cannot have two moral standards one for humans one for = ET's.=20 Although

ET, so far, has not done anything to match human inhumanity = granted,

nevertheless, we would do well to look at this:

<

I have long said that if I had to make a choice between = being=20 abducted and

held against my will be aliens or by humans....

...I'd choose aliens.

Subject: Re: God & ET -- Jolting us awake

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 09:22:10 -0700

From: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

Organization: Global Advanced Intelligence Agency = (GAIA)

To: Joe Firmage <jfirmage@intendchange.com>

CC: "'Gary S. Bekkum '" <gbekkum@mediaone.net>

Joe Firmage wrote:

> important thoughts below... joe

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Gary S. Bekkum

> To: Dr. Jack Sarfatti

> [Gary]

>

> I would like to add a few points in addition to Jack's = comments re:

> Joe's "universal intelligence" perspective and ET.

>

> [Joe]

>

> > > i think it is undoubtedly the case that a = Universal=20 intelligence

> influences

> > > us, since we humans are beings too, with = some=20 ability to recognize a

> > > collective consciousness.

>

> [Gary]

>

> I continue to see "category errors" and improper = mixing of=20 "conceptual

> degrees of freedom" in this eccentric group of UFO = believers.=20 I am

> especially concerned that "archetypal synesthesia" = leads to=20 naive

> identification of ET with other fundamental aspects of = reality. Joe

> says "...it is undoubtedly the case that a Universal=20 intelligence

> influences us" and I agree absolutely with this = assessment.=20 The

> important point is that "universality" implies a kind = of=20 symmetry with

> respect to the mind and the experiential nature of=20 reality.

> When we reduce our inner "experiential" complexity, we = "make=20 contact"

> with this "universal field" of intelligence, since our = experiential

> nature is in itself a reflection of what we are in = that=20 moment.

>

> Joe - I heartily agree with your point, and was not = making the=20 category

> error. More below on this point...

>

> [Joe]

>

> > > since we are undoubtedly a young species, = still just=20 recently aware

> of our

> > > collective experience, i believe that = leaping to=20 conclusions of

> > > non-neautrality of its intent would be = premature,=20 though my

> reasoning says

> > > it seeks beneficience, since we exist. that = conforms=20 with our sense

> of hope.

>

> [Gary]

>

> Here I would make a distinction - "recently aware of = our=20 collective

> experience" implies both shared awareness of our "low=20 complexity"

> symmetries and acceptance of the need for individual=20 complexity and

> uniqueness. Our hope is thus born in a spiritual = awareness=20 which may be

> fully experienced near the low complexity mental = limit.=20 Restoring this

> symmetry within the process of natural selection leads = to=20 harmony at the

> higher complexity level. Breaking of the same symmetry = produces chaotic

> growth and ultimate disaster.

>

> [Jack]

>

> > Again I do not think we should assume only one = kind of=20 ET. The data on

> > abductions of unwilling people should give us = pause. On=20 the other hand

> my own

> > personal contact(s), like yours, were not = harmful. So=20 there are

> significant

> > differences in the data.

>

> [Gary]

>

> If you follow my point re: universality then I hope it = is=20 apparent that

> ET is a unique and complex phenomena and should not in = any=20 sense be

> mis-interpreted with "universality". This is a = critical point=20 and Jack

> is absolutely correct above in his analysis of ET as = complex=20 phenomena,

> i.e. "significant differences in the data."

>

> Joe - I am in total agreement with this point. I have = less=20 time than I would

> like to frame every sentence, particularly these days. = I am=20 not confusing

> ETs with the fundamental universality of being -- of = which all=20 physical

> systems are instances. The "universality" term was not = referencing ET

> individuals or a collective influence from ET per se. = Rather,=20 our shared

> physicality... we are "that". The influence of the = collective=20 being upon

> individuals may have important, perhaps described best = as=20 spiritual,

> significance, and is not to be confused with the ET = question,=20 though they

> may have (very important) overlapping phenomenological = considerations.

[Jack]

Yes, I see it this way also. The only point I want to make = here is=20 a technical

one. All of this demands post-quantum signal-nonlocality. = That is=20 required for

direct "spiritual" communication between lower level mind = fields=20 attached to

localized brain matter in different regions of space-time. = This is=20 a violation

of orthodox quantum theory which has signal-locality. The=20 presentations at

Davies, Duerr, Stapp et-al at recent meetings completely = exclude=20 this

information and give a completely skewed false idea of how = quantum=20 theory

relates to mind without even a debate on the issue. There = was no=20 representation

of the Bohmian view. A very serious omission - a missed = opportunity=20 twice now at

two State of the World Forums.

>

>

> [Gary]

>

> IMHO we are dealing with MANY categories of complex=20 paranormal

> phenomena, and ET is only one of them. Let's be honest = about=20 what is

> under consideration here. We have complex subjective = phenomena=20 which

> are being associated with ET and then there are the=20 quasi-physical

> events (mostly sightings of unidentified objects in = the sky,=20 or perhaps

> on radar).

[Jack]

They are not "quasi physical". They are physical. The = "quasi" part=20 as you call

it, is Star Gate technology.

> The arbitrary mixing of elements of these two = categories=20 is

> the wrong approach to get to the heart of the various=20 phenomena. This

> leads to generally meaningless metaphysical pandering = and the=20 kind of

> soft thinking that has no chance of dealing with the = issue of=20 other

> complex intelligence in the universe.

>

> Joe - Agreed. I've been saying for two years now that = we=20 likely face a

> future in which the U in UFO stands for = unidentifiABLE. Why do=20 we expect

> more diversity of morphology in Earth's oceans than = space? If=20 we are like a

> bright species of coral fish on a Cosmic reef, then we = might=20 expect an

> astonishing range of phenomena beyond our little = shore.

>

> [Joe]

> > > i sense a cosmic paranoia in your writings, = and=20 sometimes in jack's,

> that

> > > does not resonate in any way with my = intellectual=20 senses. i do not

> in any

> > > sense believe that we should take a military = posture=20 as the intent

> or

> > > backbone of a venture into space.

>

> [Gary]

>

> Here in lies the danger should we mistake the low=20 complexity

> universality with the complex cosmic ecology.

>

> We should not, IMHO, in any way, underestimate ET with = regards=20 to

> motivation, spiritual development, or intention = towards the=20 human

> species. Read Murray Gell-Mann's book "The Quark and = the=20 Jaguar". We

> exist near the border of chaos. ET brings a new = dynamical=20 influence

> into the equation which must be addressed soberly, if=20 open-mindedly,

> with a severe understanding of the consequences of any = miscalculation.

> We should assume that if ET exist, then we are part of = a=20 greater cosmic

> ecological system, and never having departed our nest, = we=20 cannot

> objectively infer what is "out there" or what ET's = actions=20 may

> portend. Some of us may potentially have "deeper" = insight into=20 this

> phenomena. At this stage I think we should focus on = the=20 objective

> consensus reality, and see what clues may be = uncovered.

>

> Joe - I agree with most of this, particularly that a = most=20 sober

> consideration of the macroecological structure is a=20 fundamental requirement.

> Of course, we must infer what is out there by what we = observe,=20 interpreted

> by what we know. If we are a part of a larger = community of=20 life, such

> knowledge would clearly play a part in the = conceptualization=20 of individual

> and collective futures. At this stage, when *every* = domain of=20 science-driven

> technology is producing jaw-dropping capabilities, and = when=20 economics is

> racing human beings and technology against each other = by=20 measures of

> productivity blind to source of labor, I am more = concerned=20 about the

> environmental sustainability of Earth and the = well-being of=20 humanity than

> that we are about to disrupt any ET civilization. The = evidence=20 better

> suggests that they may be trying to nudge our = civilization=20 along. Continuing

> to keep our official head in the sand may be an = increasingly=20 dangerous

> gamble, in a society that is growing more complex = every=20 day.

[Jack]

I agree with this 100%.

>

>

> In order to change our dangerous ways, we need a = future=20 vision. In order to

> conceptualize a future vision most free of = miscalculation, the=20 decision

> makers -- millions of leaders across "ideotechnomics"=20 (ideology + technology

> + economics) -- need to know whatever can be known = about those=20 factors that

> will actually influence us all. Good decisions depend = upon=20 truthful

> knowledge.

[Jack]

Exactly. This is why I am disappointed with the recently = past=20 meetings with

opinion makers who were not given the best up to date = information=20 on the physics

on mind-matter that we actually have. They were given = retreads from=20 Decauter!

:-) Bernie, Hal and Creon were shunted off to the sidelines = with a=20 few minutes

each. My strong point of view on issues of consciousness, = backward=20 causation

etc, was not represented at all. Instead the traditional = "reality=20 psychosis"

described in Rebecca Goldstein's "The Properties of Light" = were=20 passed off as

the official party line when it comes to = mind-matter-reality issues=20 and how they

relate to transcendental ones. The physics of mind-matter = and=20 consciousness is

obviously an important part of the UFO enigma. We need to = get the=20 reality

problem right, and not to debate all sides, to only show = one side=20 to an audience

of opinion makers, is not consistent with the common = objective.

> Since the UFO question is not being discussed = openly,

> government/science risks making precisely the mistake = you note=20 above, while

> also losing credibility with the public in excluding = observed=20 phenomena from

> theoretical plausibility. This is one of the reasons = for the=20 ubiquity of

> nonsense in the UFO/Psi field. Science rejected = observations=20 because of

> theory and said the observers were nuts, so many = observers=20 rejected science

> and created masses of nutty books. And the cycle = reinforces=20 itself to its

> present state of nuttiness where black holes, worm = holes,=20 Casimir-plate time

> travel portals, 11 dimensional space-time theories, = and

> particle-theory-proliferation can appear in credible = journals=20 of physics,

> and observations of craft that can move without = shooting stuff=20 out of a

> nozzle -- and theories of physics beginning to = illuminate such=20 function --

> cannot. Meanwhile, who knows how much nutty books may = have=20 polluted the

> consciousness of our culture, and whether such may = play a=20 partial role in

> explaining the conscious experiences of some = individuals. Now=20 is not a time

> for science to fail humanity.

Which is exactly why I said what I said above. The recent = meeting=20 did not help

that situation IMO.

>

>

> [Gary]

>

> I also believe it is likely that within the cosmic = ecology, we=20 are most

> likely to attract the attention of "others" at some = stage of=20 evolution

> near enough to ourselves that they should at the very = least=20 be

> identifiable. That is not to say that we may someday = find out=20 nest has

> been laid in the inner sanctum of some extraordinary=20 intelligence

> analogous to the spider's web in the corner of a room. = Perhaps=20 we shall

> suffer the unfortunate equivalent of being sucked out = of exist=20 by some

> cosmic "vacuum" on cosmic cleaning day. If so, there = is little=20 we can

> do to prevent this. No, our concerns will most likely = involve=20 those

> nearer to us in their fortunes, if perhaps a bit more=20 advanced. This is

> the area that should be of immediate concern to = us.

>

> Joe - Again, I agree.

>

> [Jack]

>

> > Since it is a fact that we are outclassed in = terms of=20 military

> hardware in

> > actual UFO encounters you can be sure that the = main=20 interest of the

> military

> > will be to achieve some kind of balance no matter = how you=20 personally

> view it. I

> > agree that the dominant ET contact has not been = hostile=20 or else we

> would not be

> > here now to debate it.

>

> [Gary]

>

> Premature assumption. We are here until "they" would = decide=20 otherwise.

[Jack]

Yes, OK - not a very comfortable insight for the Joint = Chiefs if=20 they realized

it.

>

>

> [Jack]

>

> > Again the key point is not to assume there is = only=20 one

> > kind of ET with one intention.

>

> [Gary]

>

> Or even one kind of "paranormal phenomena".

>

> Joe - Precisely.

>

> [Jack]

>

> > One must be open to real evidence. The fly in = the

> > ointment are the abductions even if later some of = the=20 abductees

> identify with

> > the aggressor like Patty Hearst with the SLA. The = abductors are

> clearly not the

> > same ETs you and I seem to have experienced.

>

> [Gary]

>

> Remember what you are describing here is a higher = complexity=20 (therefore

> higher intelligence) subjective phenomena (until = proven=20 otherwise).

> However, I generally believe that Jack is correct and = would=20 identify at

> least two different "groups". We should also keep in = mind that=20 "they"

> may be pawns no different from ourselves in some = otherworldly=20 experiment

> to test our compatibility etc.

>

> [Jack]

>

> > I take John Mack's reports

> > seriously, though, perhaps not always the = optimistic spin=20 he puts on

> the data.

> > On the other hand, Jacobs may be too much the = other way.=20 Pamela

> Stonebrooke's

> > encounters seem to be mostly beneficent and they = imply=20 time travel is

> key to the

> > phenomenon.

>

> [Gary]

>

> Other times =3D special cases of other worlds, or = maybe not?

>

> [Joe]

>

> > > i seriously question that a sentient species = must=20 fear becoming

> aware of its

> > > existence within galactic = civilization(s).

> >

[Jack - prev]

>

> > I completely agree with that and have never = suggested=20 otherwise.

>

> [Gary]

>

> I seriously question "not being extremely cautious" = with ET. I=20 would

> recommend the same in handling any potentially = dangerous=20 unknown

> species. Obviously there is a range of personal=20 "interaction"

> experiences, some positive, some extremely negative. = Even if=20 ET hands

> over exotic technology, until we fully understand the=20 parameters

> involved, we should at best "proceed with = caution".

>

> Joe - We agree completely that caution is vital, but I = would=20 argue that we

> should proceed. I'm simply saying that we should not = project=20 the nonsense

> tribalism of our evolutionary past onto *any* = intelligent=20 species capable of

> interstellar travel.

[Jack]

Yes, of course. 100 % agreement.

> I have several important thoughts on the abduction

> conundrum but will save those for another time.

[Jack]

My point here is a moral one. If even one human is abducted = against=20 her or his

will, it is morally wrong no matter who does it. I think it = very=20 dangerous to

use a double moral standard exempting ET or anyone from = what we=20 normally

consider abuse of individual rights. It makes no difference = that=20 later on, after

therapy, some abductees saw their experience as a good = thing. The=20 point is they

were initially traumatized causing them to seek help. Their = lives=20 were disrupted

just like in a rape. The end does not justify the means. If = some of=20 these ET's

had a legitimate purpose, needing genetic material to aid = their=20 failing gene

pool for example, I am sure there would be human volunteers = - a=20 very different

matter. This is a matter of ethics especially when we see = what is=20 still

happening in Yugoslavia, Africa etc. If ET is spiritually = superior,=20 then they

should at least provide a role model, rather than acting = like Dr.=20 Mengele. This

is why I think there are several ET forces at work = here.

> More to the point,

> uncovering the laws of physics may provide an = exquisitely=20 perfect system of

> increasingly transparent self-reflection, which = suggests to me=20 (1) that

> fearing a warlike or even neutral notion of ethics

[Jack]

Forced abuction of people from their beds in the night, = subjecting=20 them to the

kinds of anatomical indignities reported, scaring them out = of their=20 wits

disrupting their lives is hardly a "neutral notion of = ethics" even=20 if later,

glassy-eyed, they "learn to love the bomb" (Dr. = Strangelove). Am I=20 missing

something here?

> among physics-capable

> sentients is unjustified and (2) as an aside, = ultimately the=20 physics of DNA

> might prove as beautifully special as the double-helix = shape=20 implies,

> decidely not "random" and not an ET creation.

>

> > Let us hope that is how it will turn out. I think = the=20 Pentagon DIA and

> the CIA,

> > NSA et-al will take the position: hope for the = best, but=20 prepare for

> the the

> > worst. We should always act honorably and = ethically of=20 course. That is

> the

> > American Way - I mean the idea of what America = should be=20 even if it

> sometimes

> > falls short. America, like democracy, is the = worst nation=20 on the

> planet, except

> > for all the others. :-)

>

> Ingo Swann claims to have been taken to witness ET = vehicle=20 first hand.

> If true his account does not paint a rosy picture of = our=20 co-habitation

> with ET. If the "black agency" that allegedly asked = for his=20 aid to RV

> ET was involved with DIA or CIA etc. then either (1) = Swann was=20 set up to

> spread dis-information or (2) the intelligence = community has=20 been

> fighting a "cold war" with ET for at least 25 = years.

>

--

CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

http://stardrive.org

Subject: Was it REALLY Added to?...=20 http://www.thinkmars.net/marsweek.html Board?

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:23:49 -0600

From: "G. G. Ford" <swimp@home.com>

Organization: SWIMP

To: tsmith@innerx.net, stephen@goodfelloweb.com,

esglenney@aol.com, greglunt@aol.com, = lacordolino992@cs.com,

sarfatti@well.com, gabehie@hotmail.com, = edyco@prodigy.net,

dewatson@sunflower.com, cloudrider@aol.com,=20 lensman@stardrive.org

CC: gyonas@sandia.gov

Message Added: Extant MARS Life/transient

liquid H2O possible?

The following information was added to the message = board:

Name: Gary G. Ford

E-Mail: swimp@home.com

Subject: Extant MARS Life/transient liquid H2O = possible?

Body of Message:

See Dr. Gilbert Levin of Biospherics Inc - at URL:

http://www.biospherics.com/mars/spie/spiehtml.htm ) for = a

different/definitely

un-NASA-varnished view of what those two 1976 Mars Viking=20 Lander

1 & 2 Labeled

Release Life Detectors of Levin's found

way back in 1976...: Positive SIGNALS for Life. NOT Proof. = Just

EVIDENCE. ...Evidence which has been swept aside

and BURIED by NASA by appeals to an

orders of magnitude less sensitive and

false-negative-prone (even with some Earth Soil!) Viking = Gas

Chromatograph Spectrometer plus Instant SuprOxides

Arm Chair Theorizing! BTW, Levin also shows how = NonEquilibrium

Thermodynamics

can allow transient ground wetting of

Mars Soil, in appropriate parts of Mars,

for several hours a day, several months

a MARTITIAN year! http://www.Swimp.org/ - Gary G. Ford

Added on Date: 12:20:49 9/27/2000

Subject: Re: Relativistic EPR-Bell Experiments

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 09:38:15 -0700

From: "Lawrence B. Crowell" <lcrowell@swcp.com>

To: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

CC: hpstapp@lbl.gov, Barry Carter = <bcarter@igc.org>,

Robert Neil Boyd <rnboyd@mip.net>, Evan Harris Walker = <wcri@erols.com>,

"Puthoff@aol.com" <Puthoff@aol.com>, Saul-Paul Sirag=20 <sirag@pond.net>,

"tsmith@innerx.net" <tsmith@innerx.net>,

Vladimir Poponin <vladimir@isso.org>,

"Dr. Eric W. Davis" <ericdavis@nidsci.org>, "Gary G. = Ford"=20 <Swimp@home.com>,

Creon Levit <creon@isso.org>,

"dewatson@sunflower.com" = <dewatson@sunflower.com>,

Gary E Schwartz <gschwart@U.Arizona.EDU>,

Gary Osborn <Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk>,

"JagdishM@aol.com" <JagdishM@aol.com>,

Joe Firmage <jfirmage@intendchange.com>,

L Dunning = <transparent_metals_manufacturing@hotmail.com>,

"lensman@stardrive.org" <lensman@stardrive.org>,

"pandolfi@zzapp.org" <pandolfi@zzapp.org>,

"urigeller@compuserve.com" = <urigeller@compuserve.com>,

Stan Klein <klein@spectacle.berkeley.edu>

At 10:42 PM 9/26/00 -0700, Dr. Jack Sarfatti wrote:

>Does anyone understand this? I don't.

>

If you are to assume that collapse occurs along a spacelike = interval, then

since quantum mechanics involves a superposition of states = then it=20 is

possible to think that the collapse occurs on all spacelike = intervals, each

weighted with an amplitude or probability, that connects = the two=20 observers.

There does not appear to exist any decision proceedure to = determine=20 which

spacial interval is "chosen" to be the preferred one for = the=20 collapse.

Then if this is the case we should the attempt to describe = the=20 space of all

possible spacial intervals that connect the two observers. = By=20 performing

the map I illustrate one can describe all of these spacial=20 intervals as

elements or points in a projective space. One then needs to = describe the

topology of this space. Topological obstructions imposed by = light=20 cones

and the topology of projective spaces leads to the homology = I gave.=20 From

there one can then look at d(psi) along spacial intervals, = and then=20 find a

system of differential forms that satisfy the cohomology = dual to=20 this

homology. Also as this projective space is dual to the = Grassmannian=20 G_2,

this should also describe the topology for the foliations = of planes=20 of

constant action that define a wave function.

I offer this as a possible program for the geometry of = quantum=20 collapse.

It is just an idea, but if you really think about it this = appears=20 to have

an elegance to it that side steps all of these bothersome = matters=20 of

preferred frames or advanced potentials.

best,

Lawrence B. Crowell

>"Lawrence B. Crowell" wrote:

>

>> I think this is a way of looking at this matter = that=20 avoids the problem of

>> an instantaneous interval of collapse.

>>

>> The region of collapse occurs outside the past and = future=20 light cones with

>> their origins at the spacetime point or event of=20 measurements. So consider

>> the points of these measurements as x and y. The = causal=20 future and past of

>> these two points will be denoted by

>>

>> J^+(x), J^-(x)

>>

>> J^+(y), J^-(y)

>>

>> respectively. Consider the whole spacetime as S, = and let U=20 =3D union and &

>> denote intersection (AND). Then the region of = collapse=20 is

>>

>> S/(J^+(x)UJ^-(x))&S/J^+(y), J^-(y),

>>

>> which reads S modulo the future/past of S = intersected with=20 S modulo the

>> future/past of S. We call this manifold Q.

>>

>> Now the two points have some proper interval = between=20 them

>>

>> ds^2 =3D -dt^2 + dR^3

>>

>> which is invariant, and where dR^3 (the spacial = distance)=20 equals ds^2 if it

>> is on a rest frame relative to the simultaneous = frame of=20 the two

>> experiments. We then use this to map Q onto a = space Q'=20 where one

>> measurement point is considered to be mapped to=20 "infinity." So if x is at

>> s =3D 0 and y is at s =3D S =3D int ds, then we = reparameterize=20 these points under

>> this map (call the map M) by L =3D 1/s. This will = move the=20 point x out to

>> infinity.

>>

>> We then consider the projective space PQ', a 3-d = manifold.=20 This space will

>> then consist of all rays from M(y) to infinity = which is=20 M(x). Under the

>> inverse map M^{-1} this then consists of all = spacial paths=20 from y to x.

>> The space

>>

>> M^{-1}:PQ' ---> SC (spacial curves)

>>

>> then defines the region where the collapse = occurs.

>>

>> Now I impose one condition on this:

>>

>> No two spacial intervals in SC intersect.

>>

>> This will result in a number of things. This = insures that=20 each projective

>> ray in PQ' is unique, and further it results in = some=20 topology. The two

>> light cones in S impose topological restrictions = on paths=20 that loop around

>> them. If the above condition on spacial intervals = is=20 imposed, it means

>> that a path that loops around the orgin of one = light cone=20 can not be

>> continuously deformed into a path where the loop = collapses=20 to the lightcone

>> origin. This uniquness of spacial intervals them = means=20 that we pick up the

>> homology

>>

>> H_1(Q',Z) =3D ZxZ

>>

>> We have 2 Z's for the two topological obstructions = from=20 two light cones.

>> This means that we have a manifold with the = following=20 homology structure:

>>

>> H_0(Q',Z) =3D Z

>>

>> H_1(Q',Z) =3D ZxZ

>>

>> H_2(Q',Z) =3D Z

>>

>> H_3(Q',Z) =3D 0

>>

>> What is interesting is that this projective space = is dual=20 to the

>> Grassmannian space G_2(Q',Z) which is formed from = the set=20 of all 2-planes

>> in Q'. Physically this should correspond to the = set of all=20 wave fronts or

>> planes of constant action that foliate the quantum = wave=20 function in the

>> spacial region where the collapse occurs.

>>

>> One could then presumable consider this space = spacial=20 intervals by looking

>> at differentials of wave functions dpsi =3D=20 sum_x(&_x(psi)dx) (& =3D

>> partial)and form then in a manner that satisfies = both the=20 Schrodinger

>> equation and the above topology. Alternatively one = can=20 consider planes of

>> constant action within the wave function = foliation

>>

>> P_{op}psi =3D (<p> + &p)psi, & =3D = delta

>>

>> where <p> is the expectation and &p is a = quantum=20 fluctuation about

>> expectation (the interaction with the vacuum). In = fact it=20 is apparent that

>> for the differential operator d written as

>>

>> (hbar/i)d =3D (hbar/i)sum_i(dx^i nabla_i)

>>

>> that these two approaches are equivalent. This = aspect of=20 the problem would

>> need to be worked further.

>>

>> I think this is a little more general than what = has been=20 discussed here,

>> and it avoids these nettelsome matters of there = being a=20 preferred frame

>> where collapse occurs. In the end it is a matter = of what=20 space this occurs

>> on. Mostly it is argued here that it occurs on a = spacial=20 interval or a

>> space of 1-d. Here I argue that it might involve a = projective space of

3-d.

>>

>> best,

>>

>> Lawrence B. Crowell

>>

"The problem is, of course, that not only is economics = bankrupt but=20 it

has always been nothing more than politics in disguise = ...

economics is a form of brain damage." -- Hazel = Henderson

Subject: Re: God & ET -- Jolting us awake

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 09:38:21 -0700

From: "Lawrence B. Crowell" <lcrowell@swcp.com>

To: "Dr. Jack Sarfatti" <sarfatti@well.com>

CC: yokatta@oxy.edu, Joe Firmage=20 <jfirmage@intendchange.com>,

"'Dan Smith '" <dansmith@clark.net>,

"'CloudRider@aol.com '" <CloudRider@aol.com>,

"'gbekkum@mediaone.net '" <gbekkum@mediaone.net>,

"'schwann@webtrance.co.za '" = <schwann@webtrance.co.za>,

"'galactic_diva@mail.telis.net '"=20 <galactic_diva@mail.telis.net>,

"'thomsona@flash.net '" <thomsona@flash.net>,

"'amit@noetic.org '" <amit@noetic.org>,

"'pandolfi@zzapp.org '" <pandolfi@zzapp.org>,

"'Aparker9@utk.edu '" <Aparker9@utk.edu>,

"'choasnet@yahoo.com '" <choasnet@yahoo.com>,

"'wil247@sacoriver.net '" <wil247@sacoriver.net>,

"'phylegyas@hotmail.com '" = <phylegyas@hotmail.com>,

"'d1494@wt.net '" <d1494@wt.net>,

"'dewatson@sunflower.com '" = <dewatson@sunflower.com>,

"'MagickMirr@aol.com '" <MagickMirr@aol.com>,

"'wcri@erols.com '" <wcri@erols.com>,

"'gschwart@u.arizona.edu '" = <gschwart@u.arizona.edu>,

"'Swimp@home.com '" <Swimp@home.com>,

"'Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk '"=20 <Gary@osborn-day.freeserve.co.uk>,

"'Puthoff@aol.com '" <Puthoff@aol.com>,

"'stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov '" <stapp@thsrv.lbl.gov>,

"'APOLLINAIR@aol.com '" <APOLLINAIR@aol.com>,

"'creon@isso.org '" <creon@isso.org>,

"'quanta@cruzio.com '" <quanta@cruzio.com>,

"'rnboyd@mip.net '" <rnboyd@mip.net>, = "'sirag@pond.net '"=20 <sirag@pond.net>,

"'tsmith@innerx.net '" <tsmith@innerx.net>,

"'TOPPAN166@aol.com '" <TOPPAN166@aol.com>,

"'brumac@compuserve.com '" = <brumac@compuserve.com>,

"'David Lamprey '" <thelamprey@hotmail.com>,

Kim Burrafato <lensman@stardrive.org>, Carol Rosin=20 <rosin@west.net>,

Abigail Lewis <abby@isso.org>, Tony Young=20 <tony@isso.org>

At 10:29 PM 9/26/00 -0700, Dr. Jack Sarfatti wrote:

>

>

>"Lawrence B. Crowell" wrote:

>

>>

>> Look the whole thing about ET landing on Earth has = to be=20 seen in another

>> light. The Earth has been in existence for 5.5 = billion=20 years. Life on

>> this planet has been around for 3.5 billion years = and the=20 "Cambrian

>> explosion" of complex life began 700 million years = ago. At=20 no point in the

>> geological history of this planet is there any = evidence of=20 a major

>> exploitive penetration of this planet by=20 extraterrestrials.

>

>Remember Star Gate Technology from the universe next = door in=20 hyperspace.

Do not

>think in terms of long journeys through space via = conventional=20 propulsion.

Some

>of that may take place of course, but that is not, most = likely,=20 the dominant

>means of transportation in Kaku's Type 4 classification = of=20 advanced

>civilizations. It's more IMO like what was shown in the = movie=20 version of Carl

>Sagan's Cosmos.

>

Even more to my point. If star travel is very difficult = then it=20 is

unlikely that Earth could have ever been seriously = penetrated. If=20 ETs can

just walk through a door to Earth, then our planet's = history has=20 had

billions of years of time where ETs could have come here = and set up=20 shop.

If the ease of traveling through the universe is as simple = as=20 driving to

the grocery store then I should think that Earth would have = likely=20 been

over run by ETs long ago.

>>

>>

>> So if Jack is right about such high level = government=20 interest in UFOs, I

>> think some rude questions need to be asked! In = particular=20 you might want

>> to watch out for your wallets and bank accounts, = not to=20 mention the

>> nefarious activities of the IRS. The IRS was = established=20 to maintain a

>> cash flow for the military industrial complex. If=20 government is truly

>> interested in this, as Jack claims, I think that = anyone=20 with any a

>> skeptical bone in their body has to smell a scam = in the=20 works.

>>

>

I do not think I am so off kilter. The pentagon and = intelligence=20 agencies

have had a long sordid history of disinformation campaigns = in our=20 history.

Look at the Vietnam war for instance, or CO-INTEL-PRO = activities=20 within the

US, or how the congressional testimony about baby killings = in=20 Iraqi

occupied Kuwait was in fact given by a relative of the = Kuwaiti=20 crown

prince, or official denials on agent orange illness and = gulf war=20 syndrome

(where after all uranium filled shells were showered = about), or ...=20 and I

could write pages here!

The military industry is working hard to keep their feed = trough=20 filled!

All types of arguments are being given for why the US = should spend=20 hundreds

of billions of dollars on space weaponry. The "starwars = crowd" is=20 chomping

on the bit to get this stuff off the ground! A little=20 disinformation

campaign that uses independent UFO groups is not at all out = of=20 the

question. It helps to elevate the fear level in society and = can=20 increase

the votership that will favor spending of exotic and = expensive=20 weaponry.

These corporate pirates see this country, and the whole = world as=20 a

cornucopia that can be mined. It is populated by a lot of = people=20 who as

Frank Zappa said are "dumb all over," and they buy all sort = of cock=20 and

bull arguments.

Lawrence B. Crowell

>Larry I classify your views on UFOs and paranormal also = as off=20 kilter,

unbalanced

>like Dan's and Dick's, though not as extreme as either = of them.=20 I do not

mean to

>imply you are all coming from the same place of = course.

>

>My view is that it is clear they are here, the problem = is how=20 to properly

react

>to that fact without being stupidly aggressive nor = blindly=20 trusting and

>defenceless. You can be sure that the Pentagon will not = let the=20 latter

happen. I

>am not so sure about the former and that is a = problem.

>

>CREATE, COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE

>http://stardrive.org

>

>

>

>

"The problem is, of course, that not only is economics = bankrupt but=20 it

has always been nothing more than politics in disguise = ...

economics is a form of brain damage." -- Hazel = Henderson
Copyright (c) 2000 by Jack Sarfatti and Kim Burrafato. = All=20 rights reserved.

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