Command Sergeant Major,
Robert O. Dean
United States Army
Robert O. Dean has been engaged in the field of UFO
research for the last 40 years. He began this research on active
duty in the US ARMY where he served for 27 years. He retired as
Command Sergeant Major from the Army in 1976 as a highly decorated
combat veteran after having served as an Infantry Unit Commander
in combat in Korea and Vietnam. He also served in Intelligence
Field Operations in Laos, Cambodia and North Vietnam.
Additionally, from 1963 to 1967 he served at Supreme
Headquarters Allied Powers Europe ( SHAPE ), NATO as an
intelligence analyst with a Cosmic Top Secret clearance. While on
this assignment, he helped move the headquarters to the new site
in Belgium. Dean worked in the Operations Division and was a
member of the inner Command Staff thereby working with and seeing
the SACEUR (Supreme Allied Commander Europe) almost every day.
It was while he was stationed at SHAPE that Robert's
interest in UFOs first started. One night, while on duty, Robert
removed a file from SHAPE's security vault called "The
Assessment" - An Evaluation of Possible Military Threat to
Allied Forces in Europe".
This file was given the highest security classification,
COSMIC TOP SECRET. It retains that security classification to this
day. The contents of this file opened Robert's eyes to the
existence of UFOs and extraterrestrial intelligence. He
has, since reading "The Assessment", dedicated his life to one
goal: Bringing to light the true facts surrounding the UFO
phenomenon and contact with extraterrestrial intelligence.
To this end, Robert's current projects are directed toward
gaining immunity for ex-military personnel (who may shed some
light on the UFO issue), enabling them to testify before a
Congressional Hearing without fear of losing their pensions or of
RD: I am consenting to this interview for two reasons.
One is that this is the last time that I'm going to be going through
this. I’ve gone through this so many times over the years, over so many
damn stupid accusations, and I'd like to clarify this once and for all.
Michael, I'm doing this primarily out of respect for you because you put
yourself in the middle here, apparently.
you. Well, you know, I do feel that what you have to say is really
important. I feel that the truth in what you say. It means I don’t mind
sticking my neck out and supporting you since I feel that what you’re
saying is the truth and it’s important. There are people out there that
don’t like that.
RD: I deeply appreciate that. I have a couple
of misgivings. First of all, I'm rather curious as to why Kevin
(Randle) never addressed this directly to me! I’ve known Kevin for
years. I’ve known him since back when he and Don Schmitt were
putting their first book together. And why he wouldn’t just come up to
me and say, “Look, I’ve got some misgivings about the story you’re
telling,” and I could have clarified a whole bunch of things for him.
But, you’re in the middle here, and I'm sorry for that. So I would like
to make a couple of things very clear. I'm glad you’re recording
MS: I'll record it all, and transcribe it. That way
it can go out and clarify a lot of these misperceptions that are out
RD: Well, I went through the material that you sent to
me that, apparently, Kevin has published. And there’s a whole bunch of
mistakes in there, a whole bunch of misunderstandings which I could have
clarified very clearly for him, if he had even taken the time to give me
a call, or to even write me a letter. So, I thought we’d go down the
list here and I'd try to clarify a number of things.
That’s great. Let’s go through it, because that’s what I really
wanted to talk about -- clarifying the various points he makes. So if
you could respond to each of those that would be
RD: Yeah. I'm going to go down the list and try to
clarify what I can. Holy! I went through this years ago when I first
came out and began talking about the SHAPE (Supreme
Headquarters Allied Powers Europe) Study. People said, “Oh,
there’s no such thing as Cosmic Top Secret Clearance.” For two damn
years I put up with that crap, where people who have no idea what they
were talking about said, “Oh, there’s no such thing as a Cosmic Top
Secret Clearance. He made it all up.”
But after about two years, a retired wing commander in Great
Britain notified the publisher of UFO Magazine over there, that
there was indeed a Cosmic Top Secret level of clearance. And everybody
who worked at classified level at SHAPE had to have a Cosmic Top
Secret clearance. So, Graham …. I don’t know whether you ever met
MS: Graham Birdsall. No, I never
RD: Graham Birdsall published it clearly in his
magazine, that this retired wing commander had stated that, yes, there
was indeed a Cosmic level of clearance. “I had it myself,” he said. So
it does exist. And it still exists. But I had to put up with that
MS: OK. So, 1993 was the first time the general
public was able to confirm that the Cosmic Top Secret clearance
RD: Well, apparently. A lot of people didn’t even
know about it. Anybody who had been assigned at, at a classified level
with SHAPE knew about it. But the people who were being critical of me
apparently didn’t have the insight or the access, so they just say that
I made it all up. Well, finally the wing commander came out and said
that, “The damn thing does exist. I had it.”
Everybody at SHAPE who works with classified material has a
Cosmic Top Secret Clearance. So, we finally put that to rest.
Then I went through a whole period of time where I was accused that I
had made up being at SHAPE, that I hadn’t been there, that I was not
this and I was not that, and so on, and so on. And finally Michael
Hesseman, I think you know who Michael is?
MS: I do,
RD: Michael did some research there in Germany and
“I had some German investigators check into this thing, from
the German office over at SHAPE, and they say, yes, the record is
pretty clear that Dean was there, and that he had this assignment, he
had that assignment, and that those claims very accurately reflected
One of things that Kevin has gotten mistaken about here is that I
had two assignments when I was at SHAPE.
When I first arrived in the summer of 1963 I was assigned to the
Operations Division. That was the assignment that I held,
Plans and Operations Division. I held that assignment for two
years and then I got promoted. I was a Master Sergeant E7, at the time I
arrived at SHAPE, then I got promoted to Master Sergeant E8. Now that
was about, back at the time, when the United States Army created what
they called “Super Grades”.
They created the ‘Grade E8 and E9’. Prior to that time the senior
enlisted level was E7. When I got there I was an E7. While I was there
in the Operations Division I got promoted to E8, one of the Super
Grades, and I moved from the Operations Division over to the Language
Services Branch. Now, apparently people who’ve done their
investigating came up with Language Services Branch, and didn’t
have any record whatsoever of my two years assigned to the Plans and
Operations Division. That’s when I worked in the SHOC
(Supreme Headquarters Operations Center), in the War
MS: OK. So that’s really the Intelligence section –
the Plans and Operations …
RD: Plans and Operations. That’s
when I ran the Duty Roster for the Controllers who (were) the
O6’s. O6 is a grade level. I don’t know whether you’re familiar with it.
It’s a full colonel in the Air Force, it’s a captain in the Navy. But
O6’s were the Controllers in SHOC. I ran the Duty Roster for these
And while I was working in Operations Division, for two years, I
worked in SHOC. I was in and out of SHOC all the time. I even ran the
Duty Roster for the 06’s. But then when I got promoted to Master
Sergeant E8, I was transferred over as the Chief Security NCO for the
Languages Services Branch. I controlled and inventoried and had access,
and I looked after all of the classified material in Languages Services
Branch. Now these were the documents that were being translated - from
English to French, from English to Italian, to German, to whatever.
had a complete staff of translators and interpreters that worked in the
Language Services Branch. During those years, of the last 3 years
of my assignment over there, I was the Sergeant Security for the
Languages Services Branch. So the people who came up with
information saying, “Oh, he was merely a clerk in a Language Branch,”
are missing the point entirely that I had worked in OPs for two years.
Then when I got promoted and went over to Languages Services I
was in charge of all of the documents, all of the classified material
that had to be translated in the entire SHAPE
MS: In the time that you spent in Languages
Services, did you have access to The Assessment
RD: No. No, I lost my access to the thing because when
I moved out of SHOC, I had no access to get in and out of the SHOC vault
any more after that. But I was still responsible for controlling, or
inventorying and classifying and keeping control of all of the documents
and classified material that had been submitted to Language Services
Branch to be translated from one language to another.
Matter of fact, I helped put together the shipment of all our
classified material out of SHAPE headquarters in 1967, before I came
home, when we transferred all of the headquarters from Roquencourt to
Casteau. We were in Roquencourt, outside of Paris. I helped together,
put together the entire shipment of all the classified materials from
Roquencourt up to Casteau, outside of Brussels. So, I had two
assignments over there – two years at the Operations Division where I
worked in SHOC, in the War Room, and that’s when I had access to the
document The Assessment.
MS: I see. When you made
the move from Operations Division into the language section, was
your clearance in any way affected?
RD: No! I still held onto
classified Cosmic Top Secret level! To deal with that kind of material,
Michael, you had to have a CTS. All of us in that level had CTS. Anybody
who worked in SHOC had to have a CTS. I had to have a Cosmic level
clearance when I worked at Language Services because I inventoried and
was responsible for – we had about 8 large safes. In SHOC we had one
enormous vault. You could walk into the room at SHOC.
When I left Language Services, we had 8 large safes absolutely
stuffed with classified material. So, I had to inventory and be
responsible for that – giving it out to the various translators and
interpreters who had to translate it into other languages. But I didn’t
deal with The Assessment after I left SHOC.
Now Kevin says that, “Dean later amended the story.” Well, I
never amended the story at all! It’s all the same damn story! My first
exposure to The Assessment was when an Air Force, full Colonel,
who was on duty that night, as the SHOC controller, pulled it out of the
vault and threw it on my desk and said, “Read this. This’ll wake you
up!” Now according to Kevin I had another version – that I learned the
study was under way and that, having the required clearance, I often
studied the pages.
Well, there was nothing to study until the document was published
in the summer of 1964. When I arrived in ’63, there was a lot of gossip,
there was a lot of conversation and gossip among the guys in the
headquarters about the UFO study. But there was nothing to look at.
There was nothing that had been published. They didn’t publish the
document until the summer of 1964. I'd been there in Operations
Division for a full year at that time.
When it was published in the summer of ’64, it caused quite a
shock to a lot of people. Many of the senior officers were quite stunned
by it. I'll say that one night on duty, in SHOC, during late summer or
early fall of 1964, is when the Air Force colonel pulled it out of the
vault and threw it on my desk said, “Read it!” I never had a chance to
read anything until the late summer of 1964 because the document was not
published until the summer of 1964.
Kevin coming out saying that I amended the story and he had another
version, well there is no damned amendment! I’ve told the same story,
from the very beginning. And I’ve told it repeatedly. There’s nothing
about amending it or another version. When I first arrived, there was a
lot of conversation about it. But that was just gossip. Nobody had
anything to really look at until the summer of 1964, and only then did I
ever have a chance to look at the damn thing. I’ve made that clear,
Kevin had even bothered to give me a call, I could have clarified it for
MS: When you were in the Language Division, were
there any documents there that were classified “Ultra”, or was it only
in the Operations Center that there were “Ultra” classified
RD: The only time I had seen “Ultra” on any
document was on a United States document. Ultra was not
necessarily a level of classification that was commonly used at SHAPE.
It was only used on United States documents. Now, I logged in all of the
Kevin says that I didn’t have the level of access of the
Need To Know. I have no idea what Kevin’s even talking about here
because if he’s ever been assigned to a major international
headquarters, people who had the level of access deal with the documents
that they are confronted with, and “Need To Know” doesn’t necessarily
apply when you’ve got about 500 to a 1000 different documents going over
your desk in any number of days.
SHAPE Headquarters, back in 1964, ’65, until I left in ’67, we had
literally hundreds of thousands of documents that were classified
“Cosmic Top Secret”. The idea of a “Need To Know” to deal with
classified material is kind of silly. I was a senior NCO and I logged
these documents in and I logged them out regularly. I conducted
inventories of Cosmic Top Secret documents every month! Need
To Know didn’t even apply back in those days.
So documents, when they published them, they would put out
“Eyes Only”, “Need To Know”. But the number and the volume that we dealt
with, there was no crap about a Need To Know with 500 documents
crossing your desk! You’ve logged them, you’ve looked at them, you’ve
tried to figure out what they were all about as to whom they were
supposed to go to. But like I said, the only time I had seen
Ultra while I was in SHAPE Headquarters was on US documents.
Back in those days, from ’63 when I arrived, until ’67 when I
left, the administrative problems at SHAPE Headquarters were quite
serious. For example, every nation that was militarily assigned or
represented there, came to that headquarters with their own
administrative procedures. For a long, long time, every nation that
worked there, at the headquarters, frankly functioned with their own
Before I left in ’67, the Admin (short for “Administration”)
Division at SHAPE had to publish a Special Order trying to make all of
the Administrative procedures in the headquarters under one kind of
central system of procedure. But it was a damn nightmare for a long
time. The Greeks, the Turks, the Americans, the British, the Italians,
the Germans, everybody had their own Admin processes. Generally, that’s
what they followed for a long time.
was not really until we moved the headquarters up to Casteau, outside of
Brussels, that the SHAPE Admin Office published an ‘Insist’ that people
follow one single procedure for administrative operations at SHAPE
Headquarters. But it was a real hodge-podge for a long
MS: So, generally speaking then, the kind of
security procedures that would be expected in the US military just
didn’t operate in SHAPE because of these administrative problems that
they had there?
RD: Michael, it didn’t even exist! We had to
sock these people over the head, literally, to try to get some kind of a
system, a procedure, where everybody followed the same formats. Not only
did we have all those different languages involved, every damn piece of
a document that went around was either German or Italian or French or
English, and sometimes it was Turkish, sometimes it was Greek. The
Norwegians even had their own procedures.
The Danes had their procedures. They practically had to sock them
over the head with a mallet. It was not really beginning to work until
about the time I left in ’67, that the SHAPE Admin Headquarters
published the procedure insisting that everybody follow the same damn
My immediate boss was a German colonel, by the name of
Burger, and his boss was an Italian brigadier general by the name
of Julio Cesare Graziani. Now Graziani was the son of an Italian
field marshal. If you know your history, Graziani was the Italian field
marshal that conquered Ethiopia. Well, his son was a brigadier general
at SHAPE Headquarters, and he was a bullheaded … I guess it because he
was raised the son of a field marshal, but he was an ornery cuss, and we
had to fight like hell to get him to prepare documents that would meet
the SHAPE administrative procedures. He wrote all of his memos in
They had to be translated into English and French, or German. For
a long time it was a goddamn nightmare, I’ll be honest with you. But
about the time I left the Admin headquarters had gotten the Personnel
Administration to put together a procedure. I used to have a copy of it,
but I’ve misplaced it somewhere along the line, where everybody had to
follow the same administrative procedure, and violations were considered
serious. But it was a nightmare for years. Everybody was publishing in
their own process. And the Americans were just as bad as everybody
So, to answer your question about Ultra, I never saw
Ultra on anything but US documents.
MS: OK. Now,
was Ultra on The Assessment itself?
yes. It was on The Assessment. I remember that I’d seen it
RD: Now, there is another
thing here I need to clarify. It is that Kevin says that I provided a
document to somebody, and that they determined it was false. Well, let
me clarify a little bit here. I never provided a document to anybody! I
was attending an international lecture in Dusseldorf, in 1993. It was a
big conference sponsored by Michael Hesseman, and I was a speaker
over there. I was in Dusseldorf in ’93. During the weekend between, it
was a 2 week conference I rented a car and I drove over to Casteau, just
south of Brussels, to go to SHAPE Headquarters.
had been so concerned and so distraught over the criticism that I had
been receiving from so many people, that I went down to SHAPE
Headquarters, in Casteau, and I visited SHAPE. I went into the US
headquarters there, and I laid out my ID and proved who I was, and I got
myself a pass. That pass authorized me access to go into SHAPE
Headquarters. I spent the better part of 2 days visiting different
offices in the SHAPE Headquarters there in Casteau. I asked questions,
and it was very clear who I was. I identified myself. I visited the
United States section. I went up to the old Operations Division.
never got back into SHOC because I didn’t have the clearance or access
at the time. I met a lot of people. I talked to the command sergeant
major at SHAPE Headquarters there. I talked to the administrative
office. I went and visited the old Language Services Branch to see if
any of the translators or interpreters that I used to know were still
around. I found that 2 of them were still there. I began to ask a lot of
questions during that summer of 1993 about the document, about The
Assessment. I found that people were very hesitant to even talk
about anything that was classified, which only made sense. I understood
that. So I spent a better part of 2 days there visiting, and enjoyed it
took a whole lot of photographs, of me and SHAPE and so on. I visited a
couple of old friends in Language Services Branch. Then I went
back to Germany, and at the end of the conference I went back to the
States. About 3 weeks after I got home, in the summer of ’93, I got a
little note in the mail. It was an envelope with about half a dozen 35
MM colored negatives in it. No letter, no comment, no explanation, no
nothing, (only) about half a dozen loose 35 MM colored negatives. I put
them up to the light, got a magnifying glass and looked at them, and
they appeared to be photographs of the material from The
Apparently my enquiries, when I had been over in Germany and
drove over to Casteau and all, had triggered something on behalf of
somebody. So I’m back in the States and I get this envelope in the mail
and these negatives were in there. I could determine that apparently
they were negatives of classified documents, and appeared to be material
from The Assessment.
Now, step two. I had an opportunity to visit my son, who at
that time was assigned to the Pentagon. My boy is a carrier Naval
officer. He a full captain in the Navy. He’s an O6. I visited him there
that fall because I remember that the leaves were falling. While I was
visiting my son in Arlington, and he was working at the Pentagon, I took
these negatives over to a man by the name of C. Richard D’Amato.
Now, have you ever heard of Dick D’Amato?
RD: Well, I don’t know whether Dick is still working
there. At the time he was Council for International and National
Security Policies. He worked for a United States senator on the
Appropriations Committee (Senator Robert Byrd). Dick had a
Top Secret clearance, and he was interested in the UFO subject. And I
crossed paths with him a couple of times and I had gotten to know him.
So, while I was in Washington, in the fall of ’93, I took these
negatives with me.
went to Dick D’Amato’s office, and I said,
“Look. Do me a favor. You’ve got access. You have access to a
whole lot of things. You have a Top Secret level (clearance). You work
for Senator Byrd. You’re on the Committee on Appropriations for the
United States Senate.”
Dick was at that time Council for International and National
Security Policies. So I gave him the negatives and I said,
“Dick, do me a favor. Find out, if you can, for me, if these
turned them over to him.
had a pleasant afternoon, and I think we had dinner together then I
left. I never heard from him after that because I went back to Arizona.
The next thing I hear is that somebody in Britain is saying I submitted
a document to verify my story that had been considered to be fraudulent.
Well I have not submitted a document to anybody.
had submitted negatives to Dick D’Amato, asking him, in his good graces,
to see if he could find out if these were legitimate, or whether they
were phony. The next thing I know they (were) published in the British
magazine (Unopened Files), that I had provided a photograph of
the colored cover document. According to Kevin, that proved to be the
downfall of my tale. Well, that’s a total erroneous thing. I never
submitted a document to anybody.
I gave the negatives to Dick D’Amato and said, “Please try to
find out for me, if you can, whether these damn things are
MS: Right. So, that document was in the
British journal (Unopened Files), and was probably by Mark
RD: Yeah, I remember. Mark published it in his
little magazine. So I never gave Mark anything. The last thing I did is
I gave Dick D’Amato some negatives. The next thing I know, apparently
they’d made a print, and they published it in the magazine, and it had
“Ultra” on it. That supposedly proved that Dean was a big liar. Well,
let me tell you something about Ultra.
lot of people have said that,
“No, it doesn’t exist.”
Michael, Ultra is, and has
been, a US level of access. It’s been a US level code since the early
1950s. Now, are you familiar with Richard Dolan’s UFO
MS: Yes, I am.
RD: Well, Dick has done
some incredible research. He is one of the finest research investigators
that I’ve ever encountered. And his book is what I consider to be a
masterpiece. On, on page 85 (p. 47 2002, edition) of Dick’s book, ”UFOs
And The National Security State”, Dick talks about Donald Menzel
(who) had a Top Secret Ultra clearance. You’re familiar with who Menzel
MS: Yes, I am.
RD: OK. Well, Dick had
done some research and found out that Menzel had an Ultra Top Secret
Ultra, clearance back in the 50s. And apparently, from what I’ve
been able to piece together, Ultra is a level of access that the
United States government uses primarily to deal with UFO objects,
or UFO subjects. They apparently put the Ultra level on any document
that has to do with alien activities or UFO sightings. And Menzel had a
Top Secret Ultra clearance, according to Richard Dolan’s
research, back in the 50s.
right. If you have a copy of, of Dolan’s book, you can find it on page
85 (p. 47, 2002, edition).
MS: Thank you for that. That is
very helpful. I do have a copy and I’ll look that
RD: Well, Dick is a researcher that I respect. He,
he does his homework. He really looks into it. He came up with the fact
that Menzel had an Ultra Top Secret back in the 50s. So, from my
own experience, Ultra, while I was at SHAPE, appeared only on US
documents. Apparently when D’Amato got the negatives printed, I found
out that he, apparently, had sent them to Timothy Good!
And Good is the one who provided them to Mark Birdsall.
So, I’ve been trying to piece this together, of how the hell the
negatives ended up in (chuckles), in Mark Bridsall’s magazine. So, from
what I can piece together, D’Amato had given them to Good because they
knew each other. I still to this day, Michael, will not swear that that
cover-sheet is legitimate. I have no knowledge that it is. All I know is
that I had been given these negatives. I gave them to D’Amato.
Apparently D’Amato gave them to Good.
And the next thing I know they’re in Mark Birdsall’s
MS: Mm-hmm. Now with the negatives themselves,
were they basically still on that film that you received? In other
words, they hadn’t been developed yet, and you were wanting to know
RD: I have never developed any of those negatives because I
had seen “Top Secret” on the damn thing. Well, I looked at them through
a magnifying glass, and I was not about to have them (developed), you
know. I wanted to get them out of my hands as quickly as I
MS: OK. So you were concerned that these were still
highly classified documents and that this may be in violation of the law
if you ….
RD: Michael, I was thinking at the time, “Somebody’s
trying to set me up!”
MS: I see. OK. Well, that makes
RD: That’s why I got rid of them and gave them to
D’Amato, just to get rid of them. Never did print them. The next thing I
know is, I understand that D’Amato never leveled with me, or we never
talked after that. But, apparently, he sent them to Good, and Good sent
them to Birdsall. And apparently Good and the Admiral (Lord
Hill-Norton) tried to figure out whether they were legitimate.
According to the Admiral’s research they could never find
anything to verify them. One of the things they did bring out is that
“Ultra” was not a level of classification. Well, Ultra is, and
has been, for years! Because, Michael, you know this, because I know
that you’ve done your homework. A lot of levels of classification are in
RD: Oh, I’m
not surprised, and wouldn’t be surprised to find out that the Ultra as a
level of classification is in itself classified. So, it’s probably not
found everywhere. But Dick Dolan dug it out and it’s in his book
on page 85 (p. 47, 2002 edition).
MS: So basically when
Demotto passed on those documents to Good and Birdsall, somewhere
along the line they misconstrued that you had actually seen these and
believed that they were legitimate, that this was not ….
Yeah. The last document I saw was when I left SHOC. Let’s see, I went
there in ’63, I worked there for about two years. It was probably late
’65 when I was promoted to Master Sergeant E8, and went over to Language
Services Branch. And I hadn’t seen any material that had “Ultra” on it
after I left SHOC.
The only Ultra I had seen was on US documents in the
vault. But Ultra was not a common term used by SHAPE Headquarters. It
was only used by the United States. And the United States had its own
administrative procedures and techniques. For example, we had Air Force
and Army and Navy all working together -- all the United States
branches, Air Force, Army and Navy. Our Air Force, and our Army, and our
Navy, all had individual administrative procedures.
when you were dealing with documents, for example, you were dealing with
a document that had been prepared by the Air Force, you had to make it
very clear, when you provided that document to the United States Navy,
or to the United States Army, that this was strictly an Air Force
document, because the formats were different. You talk about the
nightmare of having all those different foreign countries involved, good
God! Even our 3 services had their own procedures!
And I’ll be honest with you, in almost the four years, close
to 5 years, that I worked at SHAPE Headquarters, the administration was
a nightmare. Not only to get the 3 services of the United States to come
to some kind of a process or procedure that made sense, but to get the
other nations to do the damn same thing. It was literally a damn
nightmare. I’ll tell you honestly, I don’t know whether Dick D’Amato is
still working back in Washington. I’ve got a phone number on him and I
thought I’d give him a call. He used to live in Annapolis (Maryland). I
was thinking of trying to track him down to see if he’s still working
much as he had a Top Secret level, I’m sure he’s probably working in
MS: Right. There are 2 documents
that came up in Graham Birdsall’s article. One was the
cover-sheet of The Assessment. The one was basically a letter
saying that you had an Ultra Top Secret clearance. So that was not
something you had ever seen before? That was basically part of that
package of half a dozen negatives that you received?
RD: No. I
still don’t know what the hell Mark Birdsall published. Nobody
ever sent me a copy of the magazine!
MS: Oh, OK. Well, I
have a copy so I can send that to you.
RD: Well, thank you. I
understand that you guys are putting together something which she
received something yesterday in the mail, about a new format or
procedure that your organization’s putting together. But she somehow
misplaced it or whatever. I can’t find it. I would appreciate it if you
can send it again.
MS: OK. Is this the conference that
we’re putting together?
RD: Well, it’s something about the
organization that’s come up with a procedure where you’re going to try
to determine whose telling the truth and who isn’t.
Oh, well, that’s something that we’re discussing. It’s not something
that we’ve decided upon yet, but it’s something that we’re trying to
play with. But that’s a hard one, just because there’s so much debate
and contention out there.
RD: Yeah, well there is. I wish you
luck, my friend. You know, I was concerned recently. You’re familiar
with the statement made by the ex-Canadian Defense
MS: I certainly am. Yes.
RD: Yeah, he
came out. I believe he said that Colonel Corso had been
telling the truth, according to Corso’s book, “The Day After Roswell”.
Well, Phil and I were friends. I knew Phil Corso. I’d been to
conferences with him. I got to know him over the years. I respected the
man, and I have always believed in my heart that Phil Corso was telling
the truth from the very beginning. Now that the retired or the
ex-Minister of Defense of Canada has come out, and apparently confirmed
Phil Corso’s story was legitimate, I wish Phil were still around to hear
MS: Yes. He confirmed that Corso was legitimate by a
retired US Air Force general who confided in him that Corso was telling
the truth. Paul Hellyer hasn’t revealed who that general was.
People would like to know. But he is also being criticized, because just
as Philip Corso was criticized, now Paul Hellyer is being criticized by
many ufologists because he’s taking Philip Corso at his word, or based
on what he was told by the general.
RD: You know, this is
heartbreaking, Michael, that we people in the UFO field can’t get along.
We are our own worst enemies, with this knock-down-drag-out brawl that’s
going on, where everybody’s throwing bricks, bats, rocks and mud at each
other. We don’t need critics in the Department of Defense! We’re doing
enough damage to ourselves, for Christ sake!
MS: Yes. In
my own experience, in looking at the criticisms, what I find is that
people will try to twist what others say, and try to discredit them that
way. Like in (the case) of Kevin Randall with your testimony, he said
that you changed your story a number of times. But that is an outright
distortion of what had occurred. You’ve actually said that you’ve
maintained the same story. So, some researchers try to misconstrue how
people present facts and in a negative light. I’ve noticed that this has
happened not only with you, but with Philip Corso, Clifford Stone, and
RD: Yes, I’ve noticed that too and it
breaks my heart because, as I told you before, I told one story, and I
told it simply and I told it in one version, and I haven’t changed my
tale. I haven’t changed anything. I tell the same damn story because
what I’m telling is what I’ve seen, what I was involved with, what I’ve
learned. I can’t change that. I was there. I saw this. I was affected by
it. I kept my mouth shut for so many years. I never said a word until
finally I got to a point where, frankly, I was getting to think I’m
going to die here before I ever share it with anybody.
And I came out and told the story. Well, I have been attacked
mercilessly from all directions. But the attacks from the guys within
the UFO field of research have really hurt me more than anything else.
And that troubles me. I respect your position, Michael, and I respect
your hunger to find the truth, and I support you completely. And I want
to thank you for standing up for me.
MS: Oh, it’s my
pleasure. Every time I hear you I feel the truth of your words. Your
story is consistent. Your story fits with the facts. To me your story is
critical to this whole field. And I’m frankly amazed that so many UFO
researchers go to such great lengths to find any way to cast doubt or to
criticize you when in fact it’s been clearly proven that you served in
the Operations Center of NATO, having a very senior position, and
had access to some very sensitive documents. Yet people choose not to
acknowledge that and go for these very abstract criticisms or minor
details that might not fit their conceptions and criticisms of you. To
me it’s like people are out to debunk your story, regardless of the
truth of it.
RD: Well, I agree with you, Michael. And as I
said, I support you. And I’m sorry that you found yourself in the middle
here, between Kevin and I. As I said, it could have all been resolved if
Kevin had ever had the courtesy to give me a phone call or write me a
letter. We could have clarified some of these things, a long time ago,
without having put you in the middle here. I respect you, and I
encourage you to continue to do what you’re doing. Michael, you’ve got
my support all the way through this thing.
MS: Well, thank
RD: I admire what you’re doing. I know how difficult it
is for you. I know what you went through back there at the university,
and I take my hat off to you, my friend.
MS: Thank you,
Bob. I’m certainly encouraged by the things you’ve told me. I know that
this field is real. I know I know the things you’ve experienced make it
worthwhile, for any sacrifice that I’ve gone through is little in
comparison to what the benefit is of pursuing the truth and getting this
RD: I ran into Steven Greer a couple
of years back and it was at a conference. I think it was up at Laughlin,
at Bob Brown’s conference a couple years back. He grabbed hold and
pulled me aside and he said,
“Oh, by the way,” he said, “one of my whistleblowers that I had
at my big conference at Washington DC has told me that he read The
Assessment and that everything you’ve said is true.”
Then he ran off and I never got a chance to get Steven Greer
pinned in a corner to find out who the hell he was talking about. So,
apparently one of his retired military whistleblowers had verified
The Assessment. So if you ever get a chance to run into Greer,
ask him who the hell he was talking about.
MS: Thank you. Yes, that’s
an important lead. I’ll definitely keep that in mind next time I talk to
RD: Good! And listen, I know the one who verified the
story was Michael Wolf. You know what a job they did on Michael
MS: Yes, I know. They debunked him mercilessly as
RD: Well, I knew Michael Wolf. I never
met him, but I had talked to him repeatedly. When he was dying, he was
on the phone with me many, many hours, and Michael (Wolf) told me and he
told the Italian lady …
MS: Paola Harris …
Yeah, he told Paola Harris that he had read The Assessment in a
US file, when he was involved back there. But then they attacked
Michael. They pulled him apart and tried to discredit him. But it goes
on and on, Michael. It happens again and again. And Clifford
Stone is another friend of mine. Are you familiar with who Clifford
MS: Yes. I’ve done some interviews with Clifford. I
certainly know about him.
RD: Clifford Stone is a
retired Army sergeant who lives in, of all places, Roswell!
Clifford had said one time,
“I’ve read the damned Assessment.” He said, “I saw the US
And he supported me and said that Dean was telling the truth.
But, I reached a point, Michael, as I said. I’m going to be 77 here in a
couple of weeks and I’m too damn tired to go through this crap again.
I’ve spoke with you, and I’ve shared a few things with you only because,
as I said, I respect you and I respect the position that you’re in. So
this will be my last, so called, public statement on the thing. And I
wish you well, my friend.
MS: OK. Thank you.
I hope your conference is hell of a wonderful success.
Thank you, Bob. I’ll keep you posted. I’ll have all this transcribed
and send you a copy. This will hopefully deal with those kinds of
criticisms, and at least get the record straight.
my friend, if you run into Kevin, if he comes to the conference, and you
get in touch with him, tell him that all this could have been resolved
if he had ever communicated with me!
MS: I’ll pass that
RD: OK, guy.
MS: Thank you very much, Bob.
All the best.
RD: Michael, you take care of yourself. I’ll
have to tell you very honestly, I’m a little envious of you being in
Hawaii. I wish I were there, but I don’t travel any more.
Well, thank you for your help, and for telling me what exactly
happened, and clarifying the situation. That does help me a lot, and I
can now respond to the each of the criticisms.
RD: If you are
ever able to track down Dick D’Amato, I’m sure he’ll verify
everything I’ve told you.
MS: OK. I’ll do
RD: Read page 85 (p. 47, 2002 edition) of Dolan’s book,
and you’ll see he refers to Ultra, as being active back in the ‘50s. I
only saw Ultra on US documents at SHAPE. Never on French, German,
British, or any of that.
RD: OK, my friend.
MS: Thank you. Aloha!
[End of interview.]